Is it worth gaining an IMC?
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Meldex
I hope I did not give the impression that flying IMC by use of VOR & ADF cross cuts was the best way to go, it is not GPS is !
However I do tune the VOR & DME to a convenient station and use the VOR page on the GPS to check that the GPS & VOR position agree, the radial read out on a King VOR makes this check very easy to do.
In effect this is what most airliners are doing GPS is the primary en-route navigation source but the FMC looks at continuously looks at five DME stations to back up the GPS position.
But the bottom line is that you still must retain the skils to revert to VOR/DME/ADF navigation should the GPS fail.
However I do tune the VOR & DME to a convenient station and use the VOR page on the GPS to check that the GPS & VOR position agree, the radial read out on a King VOR makes this check very easy to do.
In effect this is what most airliners are doing GPS is the primary en-route navigation source but the FMC looks at continuously looks at five DME stations to back up the GPS position.
But the bottom line is that you still must retain the skils to revert to VOR/DME/ADF navigation should the GPS fail.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I can't believe what I'm reading. It sounds like a significant number of people are navigating about the UK using VORs, presumably taking cross cuts from other VORs or NDBs to work out where they are.
Depends on which aircraft I rent. If it's one with a big coloured moving map I use the GPS. If it's one whose GPS has a tiny monochrome text screen I'm most unlikely to bother to programme a route into it if there are some conveniently located VORs, as the NAV radio kit is that much easier to use.
And it helps to plan round conveniently located VORs anyway, as a backup.
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I always have the GPS on unless it's a local bimble but I can't see why if you have the other gear on board that you shouldn't have it tuned in and set up. I usually have every bit of nav kit on the a/c switched on. Bit daft not to if you have it; plus there's still some satisfaction to be had from NDB navving. It's a bit like driving around using an Austin 7. Not very modern but satisfying in it's own way, like getting a sextant out on a yacht.
Disclaimer: I will however praise the Lord when they finally get shut of NDB approaches.
Disclaimer: I will however praise the Lord when they finally get shut of NDB approaches.
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I fly with the garmin 496 which seems to have every bell, whistle and feature accessible thru a logical user friendly interface that makes navigating a doddle. I've also flown other aircraft with the old IFR certified Garmin 300/430 and King KLN and no matter how hard i try i just cant get the use out of them without pissing around for ages with the buttons and pages which makes me not bother using them. I suppose the manufacturers strip all the gadgets out to get the IFR certification. Anyone here used the new GTN 650/750 units they look like they combine the utility of an IFR box with the ease of use and features that the VFR units have.
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Piperboy
Its a pity that no one had the time to teach you a little about the King KLN series of GPS units because they have some very nice features and bring the navigation workload down when properly set up.
But it is not surprising a lot of years back I stepped aboad a BAe146 doing my line training on the type and set about putting the route into the KLN90 when the line trainer said " its the only aircraft in the fleet with the King, its far to complicated so dont bother with it"
At the time all the other aircraft had the truly dreadful Trimble fitted.
After two hours in the air I had the line trainer, trained on the King and its features like the easy direct-to in the flight plan page and the waypoint ETA on the same page, his attitude to the KLN was transformed once he had seen the way it worked.
I will be able to comment on the next generation of GPS units (GTN650) when I get the electric spagetti in the aircraft sorted out but I feel that only 5% of the functions of most GPS units are ever used because of lack of training and the rush to get into the air.
Part of the rush to get into the air is because the engine (and may be the hobbs) is running before the GPS can be started, with this in mind the GTN instalation on my aircraft will have the ability to run ONLY the GTN direct from the battery.
That way you can get the thing set up with the flight plan without the whole electrical system burning battery power or the engine running, once the flight plan is in the box you can shut it down and fire up the whole aircraft and use the crossfill function to program the second GTN650.
The other reason these units dont get used properly very much is the very short sectors that most of UK GA flys and the work to get a short flight to the isle of whight is not worth the button pushing, when you launch out of Oxfordshire bound for the north of Spain non stop the flight & fuel planning takes on much more importance.
But it is not surprising a lot of years back I stepped aboad a BAe146 doing my line training on the type and set about putting the route into the KLN90 when the line trainer said " its the only aircraft in the fleet with the King, its far to complicated so dont bother with it"
At the time all the other aircraft had the truly dreadful Trimble fitted.
After two hours in the air I had the line trainer, trained on the King and its features like the easy direct-to in the flight plan page and the waypoint ETA on the same page, his attitude to the KLN was transformed once he had seen the way it worked.
I will be able to comment on the next generation of GPS units (GTN650) when I get the electric spagetti in the aircraft sorted out but I feel that only 5% of the functions of most GPS units are ever used because of lack of training and the rush to get into the air.
Part of the rush to get into the air is because the engine (and may be the hobbs) is running before the GPS can be started, with this in mind the GTN instalation on my aircraft will have the ability to run ONLY the GTN direct from the battery.
That way you can get the thing set up with the flight plan without the whole electrical system burning battery power or the engine running, once the flight plan is in the box you can shut it down and fire up the whole aircraft and use the crossfill function to program the second GTN650.
The other reason these units dont get used properly very much is the very short sectors that most of UK GA flys and the work to get a short flight to the isle of whight is not worth the button pushing, when you launch out of Oxfordshire bound for the north of Spain non stop the flight & fuel planning takes on much more importance.
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I hear what your saying A and C, my panel mounted 496 has an internal battery that's good for at least a few hours, it detects aircraft power and switches accordingly which allows me plenty time pre engine start to get the route all set up. If I was in a rental with the meter running I probably won't bother.
Regarding the KLN, when I was taking my instrument checkride earlier this year I was required to do one GPS approach, strangely this was only the second time throughout my entire IFR training that I would be using the KLN for an approach, or at all for that matter
I sat down and read the manual cover to cover a few times and somehow managed to load the approach for the checkride. After passing, I had a few fun vfr flights where I tried to use it again and just could not get the hang of it.
Regarding the KLN, when I was taking my instrument checkride earlier this year I was required to do one GPS approach, strangely this was only the second time throughout my entire IFR training that I would be using the KLN for an approach, or at all for that matter
I sat down and read the manual cover to cover a few times and somehow managed to load the approach for the checkride. After passing, I had a few fun vfr flights where I tried to use it again and just could not get the hang of it.
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We have a GTN 650 and it's great. If it gives you clue, Gloucester to Leicester via DTY a few seconds to input and then fly on the autopilot in NAV mode. Switch to heading and OBS to join the circuit at destination.
I even have to time to program the AERA and IPad as well :-)
I even have to time to program the AERA and IPad as well :-)
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Definitely do the IMC. As others say, it will improve your flying skills and also give you more confidence in your abilities. And practice it. Do practice ILS/VOR/SRA approaches on your way home in VMC, and as others also suggest, crosscheck between VORs/GPSs/DMEs as that too will improve your understanding and SA (situational awareness).
Personally, I am concerned about the removal of so many VORs. So many people are saying just use the GPS. OK, how many of these are legal GPS fits? I'm a traditionalist, with a chart, and for legality I can use VORs but I also have a Lowrance Airmap2000 with dash mounted aerial (not IFR approved fit), and a yoke-mounted iPad2 with its own built in GPS (&using Skydemon).This setup gives excellent SA and (if I so choose) the challenge of practising multiple inputs.
The big question. How reliable is the GPS? All things being equal, the Airmap to be honest is about 95% reliable, drops out quite a lot when heading north, and also when some 'harmonic' frequencies are selected on the COM1. The iPad2 however is about 99.9% reliable. Dropped out once on a 40hr 3500nm round Europe trip (near a military base).
But.... And it is a big but ....
How often do military exercises from Spadeadam and all points north employ jamming? How often do you see NOTAMs telling you that GPS info may suffer interference due to jamming or military exercises? Frequently. Will this jamming be stopped to cater for the loss of VOR/IFR navaids? (Rhetorical question)
I am seriously thinking about getting an approved GPS fit, but even the simplest options are not cheap. (If anyone has any recent experience or suggestions then I am all ears). It would appear that these options are along the Garmin430/530 - KingKLN94 - or GarminGTN650/750.
The first is effectively 12-15yr old technology and would probably come in at around £10k fully fitted. The second I know not. And the third, would appear to be around £10-12k just for the kit, never mind the fitting and approval paperwork!!
Any ideas?
Personally, I am concerned about the removal of so many VORs. So many people are saying just use the GPS. OK, how many of these are legal GPS fits? I'm a traditionalist, with a chart, and for legality I can use VORs but I also have a Lowrance Airmap2000 with dash mounted aerial (not IFR approved fit), and a yoke-mounted iPad2 with its own built in GPS (&using Skydemon).This setup gives excellent SA and (if I so choose) the challenge of practising multiple inputs.
The big question. How reliable is the GPS? All things being equal, the Airmap to be honest is about 95% reliable, drops out quite a lot when heading north, and also when some 'harmonic' frequencies are selected on the COM1. The iPad2 however is about 99.9% reliable. Dropped out once on a 40hr 3500nm round Europe trip (near a military base).
But.... And it is a big but ....
How often do military exercises from Spadeadam and all points north employ jamming? How often do you see NOTAMs telling you that GPS info may suffer interference due to jamming or military exercises? Frequently. Will this jamming be stopped to cater for the loss of VOR/IFR navaids? (Rhetorical question)
I am seriously thinking about getting an approved GPS fit, but even the simplest options are not cheap. (If anyone has any recent experience or suggestions then I am all ears). It would appear that these options are along the Garmin430/530 - KingKLN94 - or GarminGTN650/750.
The first is effectively 12-15yr old technology and would probably come in at around £10k fully fitted. The second I know not. And the third, would appear to be around £10-12k just for the kit, never mind the fitting and approval paperwork!!
Any ideas?
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GPS options
The King KLN units are very good and as a control head for other graphic displays they still are an opinion, but the support from King is almost non existent. IMO King have lost the plot with GA and I would not trust them to support even there latest products, since they became part of Honnywell the management has failed understand the importance that using GA as a development tool for airline equipment and so have virtually abandoned any research. At one time you could count on King to support a product for about twenty years after it went out of production, following the support I have received on my KLN unit I would not trust them as even the newest products are likely to have the support withdrawn at the whim of some out of touch honnywell accountant.
This is why my totaly Bendix/ King equipped aircraft is in dock to have all but the DME & ADF removed and replaced with Garmin equipment ( audio by PS Engineering ).
The only game in town is now the Garmin GTN650/750 series the older Garmin units are going out of production, I don't expect Garmin to withdraw product support for some time on the 340/540 but what seems like a bargain now by buying the last of the 340/540 units will look like a very expencive mistake in twenty years when the product support ends and the GTN 650/750's are still being supported.
It is with some regret that I have dumped most of my king equipment as it was reliable and easy to use but I have lost any trust in King to support their products.
This is why my totaly Bendix/ King equipped aircraft is in dock to have all but the DME & ADF removed and replaced with Garmin equipment ( audio by PS Engineering ).
The only game in town is now the Garmin GTN650/750 series the older Garmin units are going out of production, I don't expect Garmin to withdraw product support for some time on the 340/540 but what seems like a bargain now by buying the last of the 340/540 units will look like a very expencive mistake in twenty years when the product support ends and the GTN 650/750's are still being supported.
It is with some regret that I have dumped most of my king equipment as it was reliable and easy to use but I have lost any trust in King to support their products.
