Legality of flying as 'safety pilot'
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The CAP 804 guidance on logging time states that a Pilot acting as a Safety Pilot logs the time as SNY. Seems pretty clear.
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From CAA Safety pilot info (page2)
Safety Pilot Information
&
Briefing Sheet
(To Pilot With
OSL
).Doc
January
-
2013
v
7.1
SAFETY PILOT BRIEFING SHEET
A safety pilot is a pilot who is current and qualified t
o act as Pilot In Command (PIC) on the class/type of
aeroplane and carried on board the aeroplane for the purpose of taking over control should the person
acting as the PIC become incapacitated.
The following are a few notes to help you in your role as a
safety pilot.
INTRODUCTION
Your pilot has been
assessed
as unfit for solo private flying, but fit to fly with a safety pilot. Although this
may sound medically rather alarming, the standards for such pilots are still high, and he/she would
undoubtedly
be passed fit to lead a ‘normal life’ on the ground. The chances of any problem occurring
during the flight are therefore remote. Nevertheless, as with any aspect of flight safety, remote possibilities
should be assessed, and as far as possible, eliminat
ed. This is the purpose of the safety pilot limitation.
YOUR QUALIFICATIONS
You should be checked out and current on the aircraft. Unless you have to take over the controls you are
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
AIRCRAFT CONSIDERATIO
NS
The aircraft must have dual controls and you must be licensed to fly in the proposed airspace and
conditions. The PIC should be sat at one set of controls and the safety pilot at the other set.
TYPE OF INCAPACITATION
You should have some idea of your
pilot’s medical condition, so that you can be alert for the type of
problem(s) that might occur during the flight. These could be due to an obvious or subtle incapacitation in
a pilot who is otherwise functioning perfectly normally. Alternatively, there
may be some fixed problem that
is always present (such as an amputated limb) which may cause difficulties in some circumstances.
When flying with a pilot who might suffer some form of incapacitation, you should particularly monitor the
critical stages of
the flight (such as take off and approach). It may be useful to use some form of question
and answer routine as is done during commercial flights. If your pilot does become incapacitated, the two
priorities are to fly the aeroplane and try to prevent him
/her from compromising the controls. The greatest
help in the latter situation is the continuous wearing of a fixed seat belt and shoulder harness (not an inertia
reel). With a fixed disability it should be possible to anticipate when help may be needed
(maximum
braking for example) and to take appropriate action. Further points of consideration are as follows:
-
a)
You should check the medical certificate of your intended PIC to see if the medical restriction is
associated with an aeroplane with specially
adapted controls, or to a specific type of aeroplane. If
so, ensure your PIC is in compliance in this respect.
b)
Before the flight, discuss with your PIC the circumstances under which you should intercede and
take control of the aeroplane. During this dis
cussion, also establish whether the PIC wishes you to
conduct any flight crew ancillary tasks. If so, these should be clearly specified to avoid confusion
between the PIC and you during the flight. This is particularly important when events are moving
qu
ickly and the aeroplane is near the surface, for example, during take
-
off or final approach to
landing.
c)
Bear in mind that you are not just a passenger but may, at any time during the flight, be called upon
to take over control. Therefore, you will need t
o remain alert to this possible situation at all times.
d)
You should keep in mind that accidents have occurred with two qualified pilots on board when both
pilots thought the other was in control. A means of communication must be established between
you an
d the PIC in order that both of you know who is in control of the aeroplane at any given time.
The spoken words ‘I have control’ from one pilot with the response words ‘you have control’ from
the other pilot is a simple and appropriate method of establish
ing this.
e)
In order to avoid distraction or confusion to the PIC during the flight, you should keep your hands
and feet away from the controls unless safety circumstances arise which require you to take over
control of the aeroplane
NO logging of flight as SNY
Safety Pilot Information
&
Briefing Sheet
(To Pilot With
OSL
).Doc
January
-
2013
v
7.1
SAFETY PILOT BRIEFING SHEET
A safety pilot is a pilot who is current and qualified t
o act as Pilot In Command (PIC) on the class/type of
aeroplane and carried on board the aeroplane for the purpose of taking over control should the person
acting as the PIC become incapacitated.
The following are a few notes to help you in your role as a
safety pilot.
INTRODUCTION
Your pilot has been
assessed
as unfit for solo private flying, but fit to fly with a safety pilot. Although this
may sound medically rather alarming, the standards for such pilots are still high, and he/she would
undoubtedly
be passed fit to lead a ‘normal life’ on the ground. The chances of any problem occurring
during the flight are therefore remote. Nevertheless, as with any aspect of flight safety, remote possibilities
should be assessed, and as far as possible, eliminat
ed. This is the purpose of the safety pilot limitation.
YOUR QUALIFICATIONS
You should be checked out and current on the aircraft. Unless you have to take over the controls you are
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
AIRCRAFT CONSIDERATIO
NS
The aircraft must have dual controls and you must be licensed to fly in the proposed airspace and
conditions. The PIC should be sat at one set of controls and the safety pilot at the other set.
TYPE OF INCAPACITATION
You should have some idea of your
pilot’s medical condition, so that you can be alert for the type of
problem(s) that might occur during the flight. These could be due to an obvious or subtle incapacitation in
a pilot who is otherwise functioning perfectly normally. Alternatively, there
may be some fixed problem that
is always present (such as an amputated limb) which may cause difficulties in some circumstances.
When flying with a pilot who might suffer some form of incapacitation, you should particularly monitor the
critical stages of
the flight (such as take off and approach). It may be useful to use some form of question
and answer routine as is done during commercial flights. If your pilot does become incapacitated, the two
priorities are to fly the aeroplane and try to prevent him
/her from compromising the controls. The greatest
help in the latter situation is the continuous wearing of a fixed seat belt and shoulder harness (not an inertia
reel). With a fixed disability it should be possible to anticipate when help may be needed
(maximum
braking for example) and to take appropriate action. Further points of consideration are as follows:
-
a)
You should check the medical certificate of your intended PIC to see if the medical restriction is
associated with an aeroplane with specially
adapted controls, or to a specific type of aeroplane. If
so, ensure your PIC is in compliance in this respect.
b)
Before the flight, discuss with your PIC the circumstances under which you should intercede and
take control of the aeroplane. During this dis
cussion, also establish whether the PIC wishes you to
conduct any flight crew ancillary tasks. If so, these should be clearly specified to avoid confusion
between the PIC and you during the flight. This is particularly important when events are moving
qu
ickly and the aeroplane is near the surface, for example, during take
-
off or final approach to
landing.
c)
Bear in mind that you are not just a passenger but may, at any time during the flight, be called upon
to take over control. Therefore, you will need t
o remain alert to this possible situation at all times.
d)
You should keep in mind that accidents have occurred with two qualified pilots on board when both
pilots thought the other was in control. A means of communication must be established between
you an
d the PIC in order that both of you know who is in control of the aeroplane at any given time.
The spoken words ‘I have control’ from one pilot with the response words ‘you have control’ from
the other pilot is a simple and appropriate method of establish
ing this.
e)
In order to avoid distraction or confusion to the PIC during the flight, you should keep your hands
and feet away from the controls unless safety circumstances arise which require you to take over
control of the aeroplane
NO logging of flight as SNY
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CAA safety leaflets have no standing in law.
And CAP 804 is deemed a higher level of guidance than safety leaflets.
You can long SNY for anything you like if you can be bothered with it means absolutely jack poo in the grand scope of things.
And CAP 804 is deemed a higher level of guidance than safety leaflets.
You can long SNY for anything you like if you can be bothered with it means absolutely jack poo in the grand scope of things.
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The CAA Safety document doesn't say anything at all about logging the flight... SNY or otherwise.
PA28181 tagged 'NO logging of flight as SNY' on the end which is a bit misleading to say the least.
PA28181 tagged 'NO logging of flight as SNY' on the end which is a bit misleading to say the least.
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Quite right I should have made it clear I added the last sentence (co's I can't see how to bold/underline)
???
This is from the document I pasted
pretty unambiguous I'd say.
The CAA Safety document doesn't say anything at all about logging the flight... SNY or otherwise.
This is from the document I pasted
You should be checked out and current on the aircraft. Unless you have to take over the controls you are
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
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Erm.... You are both agreeing.
Supernumerary is not logging flight time. It's make an entry in your log that counts for nothing. So you can log the flight as SNY it's just that SNY means nothing and wastes space in your logbook. I have to log upwards of 20 flights a day at work and we try to reduce the number of entries we have to make by block booking. I can't yhink why anyone would want to make work for themselves writing up a flight in a logbook that has no value?
Supernumerary is not logging flight time. It's make an entry in your log that counts for nothing. So you can log the flight as SNY it's just that SNY means nothing and wastes space in your logbook. I have to log upwards of 20 flights a day at work and we try to reduce the number of entries we have to make by block booking. I can't yhink why anyone would want to make work for themselves writing up a flight in a logbook that has no value?
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Yes it's a completely pointless exercise logging SNY in SEP's never mind on big stuff.
But as usual the thread drift has descended into pedantry argument about points never questioned.
As an aside, I do keep track off all my flying (sans holiday flights). Example, flight out as P1 1 hr, flight back pax 1 hr =2 hrs added to number in top right of log book. Purely academic.
But as usual the thread drift has descended into pedantry argument about points never questioned.
As an aside, I do keep track off all my flying (sans holiday flights). Example, flight out as P1 1 hr, flight back pax 1 hr =2 hrs added to number in top right of log book. Purely academic.
If I'm there with a purpose, other than just enjoying the view, I log it, as I almost certainly learned something from it towards my total experience.
If I can't legally log it as pilot, then I put nothing in the flying hours coumn, or if it's somethign I do a lot (in my case flying as a Flight Test Observer or airborne scientist) then it goes in a separate column so I can keep tabs on total experience, without claiming it to be something it isn't. I don't fly as anybody's safety pilot, but if I did, I'd do that also.
For example, the one time I got a go in a Yak-52, I got to handle it, I learned about the aeroplane, it increased my store of aviation knowledge and experience. So it's in my logbook, take-off and landing times are shown, but no number in the pilot hours column. My logbook is my personal record of aviation experience.
Anybody have a problem with such flights being a line in my logbook - tough, I don't care.
G
If I can't legally log it as pilot, then I put nothing in the flying hours coumn, or if it's somethign I do a lot (in my case flying as a Flight Test Observer or airborne scientist) then it goes in a separate column so I can keep tabs on total experience, without claiming it to be something it isn't. I don't fly as anybody's safety pilot, but if I did, I'd do that also.
For example, the one time I got a go in a Yak-52, I got to handle it, I learned about the aeroplane, it increased my store of aviation knowledge and experience. So it's in my logbook, take-off and landing times are shown, but no number in the pilot hours column. My logbook is my personal record of aviation experience.
Anybody have a problem with such flights being a line in my logbook - tough, I don't care.
G
Avoid imitations
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Unless you have to take over the controls you are
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
supernumerary and cannot log any flying time.
Apart from the obvious keeling over, stone dead, does it count if the P1 needs to sneeze, or just fancies a rest, or likes the idea of his safety pilot staying in practice in the aircraft they're both flying and letting him fly a leg?
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Perhaps the term "log" the flying time has created the problem. It's you're log book, you can write whatever you like in it - So "log" whatever you like.
However, the contents of a logbook will serve any of four primary purposes:
Evidence of flying experience to support the application for a license or rating,
Evidence of flying experience for insurance purposes,
Evidence of flying experience to show currency for renting,
Or, to reminisce over when you're old.
Anything you write in your logbook is fine for the latter, but first three items would require that you actually flew the aircraft as a crew member required by the aircraft type design. As a safety pilot, you are not a required crew member by the type design, unless there is no other functioning pilot (as all those GA aircraft only require one pilot). So there is no piloting credit for you occupying that "other" seat, unless you assume the responsibilities of PIC for the remainder of the flight.
However, the contents of a logbook will serve any of four primary purposes:
Evidence of flying experience to support the application for a license or rating,
Evidence of flying experience for insurance purposes,
Evidence of flying experience to show currency for renting,
Or, to reminisce over when you're old.
Anything you write in your logbook is fine for the latter, but first three items would require that you actually flew the aircraft as a crew member required by the aircraft type design. As a safety pilot, you are not a required crew member by the type design, unless there is no other functioning pilot (as all those GA aircraft only require one pilot). So there is no piloting credit for you occupying that "other" seat, unless you assume the responsibilities of PIC for the remainder of the flight.
Avoid imitations
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Life threatening or as said in CAA guidance "you have control" from now defunct P1 only I'd say?
unless you assume the responsibilities of PIC for the remainder of the flight.
The P1 might just feel like he needs a rest, iaw the terms of his medical limitation and the CAA's guidance notes on the matter of "safety pilots" doesn't specify apart from the words "have to". Once taken over as P1, could control be handed back to the original P1 for the remainder of the flight time? No guidance is given.
There have been a number of previous discussion about the situation where two qualified pilots sit side by in an aircraft certificated for singe pilot operation, as most, if not all light aircraft are. Both might wish to claim & log P1 for part of the flight.
Question is, what's the difference? Can a qualified pilot claim P1 time flown from the "wrong" seat, or not, if he handles the controls in flight where he hasn't signed the tech log, as in the case of medical incapacitation of the person who has signed?
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It really is simple, irrespective of all the talk re: "safety pilots and the logging of time", there will only ever be one person logging P1 at any given time, it matters not one jot which seat your in (R/L) so long as you can reach all controls necessary for safe flight.
PS: If you think the restricted P1 is going to cark it in the air stick him/her in the RH seat you in left and you will happy as larry if he goes.
PS: If you think the restricted P1 is going to cark it in the air stick him/her in the RH seat you in left and you will happy as larry if he goes.
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it matters not one jot which seat your in (R/L) so long as you can reach all controls necessary for safe flight.
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Generally, yes, though there a few types which specify which seat the PIC must fly from. Cessna Caravan is one. Read the Flight Manual before assuming is does not matter.
Yes we remember you posting that previously, As generally most here don't fly Caravans maybe only tow them to Cornwall, that would mean NO safety pilot if restricted and want to fly your Caravan then from the "proper" seat? In fact it would bar all safety pilots if there was only one P1 seat wouldn't it?
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Hmmm, the point I was trying to make is that it is up to the PIC to determine which seat they may/must occupy. (Not rely on an internet post). If they are required to take along a safety pilot, that would be governed by operational requirements, not aircraft design requirements. If a safety pilot is not required, the aircraft design requirements would prevail.
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Surely the fact you are required to take a safety pilot must mean you cannot for certain determine which seat needs to be occupied. This silly which seat argument will not go away.
PS I have admittedly only scanned through all 536 pages of the Cessna 208 Caravan flight manual and would appreciate the page number the seat requirement for p1 is on?
PS I have admittedly only scanned through all 536 pages of the Cessna 208 Caravan flight manual and would appreciate the page number the seat requirement for p1 is on?