What does 'wheels up landing' mean to you?
I've flown C172's, which did not leave the factory as "RG" models, but in fact were equipped with retractable wheels.....
True, but they had to remove the factory wheels first.
I had been waiting to get a slot on similar 172 at the Calgary Flying Club for a couple of weeks, during which we had unseasonably warm fall weather. My slot finally arrived on Sunday, when we had 50 m visibility in snow!
a BA 1-11 which landed gear-up at Tees Side, with three captains on the flight deck
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...8%20G-AXMG.pdf
Stansted airport
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Nearly all modern cross country gliders have retractable gear. Just one wheel, that's all.
I certainly did not ever expect to be one of those eligible for a white line award when I finally qualified to fly the club Pegasus at Booker. After all, I was an instructor! Knew it all.
And so when I had jumped in the Peg for a lunchtime jolly, and my students were waiting my return impatiently, my circuit was an example of perfection, my approach impeccable, my touchdown in front of the admiring students didn't seem that different....though when I stopped moving, the glider felt a bit strange....a bit lower than normal. Yep. Wheel up. Fortunately only a green grassy smear on the glider belly, no other damage, except to my pride.
SAFETY MESSAGE NOW! ALERT ALERT!
If you see a glider on approach, and the wheel is NOT down, do NOT RADIO AND TELL HIM! The startle effect may cause the pilot to raise the nose while raising the wheel, and has been known to trigger an accident. While a wheel up landing is usually only damaging to the glider if it happens on tarmac. Hence the white line award at the annual dinner.
After that incident, my own routine became Glider over 1,000', wheel up.
Glider under 1,000' wheel down. Works for me.
I certainly did not ever expect to be one of those eligible for a white line award when I finally qualified to fly the club Pegasus at Booker. After all, I was an instructor! Knew it all.
And so when I had jumped in the Peg for a lunchtime jolly, and my students were waiting my return impatiently, my circuit was an example of perfection, my approach impeccable, my touchdown in front of the admiring students didn't seem that different....though when I stopped moving, the glider felt a bit strange....a bit lower than normal. Yep. Wheel up. Fortunately only a green grassy smear on the glider belly, no other damage, except to my pride.
SAFETY MESSAGE NOW! ALERT ALERT!
If you see a glider on approach, and the wheel is NOT down, do NOT RADIO AND TELL HIM! The startle effect may cause the pilot to raise the nose while raising the wheel, and has been known to trigger an accident. While a wheel up landing is usually only damaging to the glider if it happens on tarmac. Hence the white line award at the annual dinner.
After that incident, my own routine became Glider over 1,000', wheel up.
Glider under 1,000' wheel down. Works for me.
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do NOT RADIO AND TELL HIM! The startle effect may cause the pilot to raise the nose
I'll stick my neck way out, and ask that if someone sees me about to land wheels up on the ground, that they do radio, and tell me. A and C has enough work already!
I'll stick my neck way out, and ask that if someone sees me about to land wheels up on the ground, that they do radio, and tell me. A and C has enough work already!
"Who'd have thought they could be so close to the brink of being startled into losing control!"
ST - I realise that that statement was probably very tongue in check but all pilots / drivers are easily distracted. I have witnessed two such accidents following a "wheel up" call on short finals, both gliders were severely trashed & one of the pilots is still in a wheel chair.
In the gliding world there is the line "there are those that have (landed wheel up) & those who are going to" - been there, made my mark much to my eternal shame.
Blue skies
R2
ST - I realise that that statement was probably very tongue in check but all pilots / drivers are easily distracted. I have witnessed two such accidents following a "wheel up" call on short finals, both gliders were severely trashed & one of the pilots is still in a wheel chair.
In the gliding world there is the line "there are those that have (landed wheel up) & those who are going to" - been there, made my mark much to my eternal shame.
Blue skies
R2
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Hmmm, I am very low experienced flying gliders, having only been a few times, but it worries me the thought that informing a glider pilot of an unsafe situation prior to landing could cause so much distraction that they would lose control. If the pilot has forgotten to extend the wheel, and upon being informed if that by radio, decides that it would be unsafe to take action, that is what it is - not great, but not an injurious crash.
For myself, for the very few times that I consider the radio to be a potential distraction, I will turn it down, if the environment permits. The pilot is permitted to take reasonable action to prevent troubling distraction. I don't believe that a pilot can reasonably claim that a radio call distracted to the point of a loss of control.
When I am training power pilots, I would have little tolerance for the claim that a radio call caused a distraction which affected flight safety.
And I reassert, that were I to be the person providing the RG aircraft, and I asked the prospective pilot: "Have you had a gear up?" and the response was: "No, so I'm going to", that pilot simply would not be flying my plane - wrong attitude!
For myself, for the very few times that I consider the radio to be a potential distraction, I will turn it down, if the environment permits. The pilot is permitted to take reasonable action to prevent troubling distraction. I don't believe that a pilot can reasonably claim that a radio call distracted to the point of a loss of control.
When I am training power pilots, I would have little tolerance for the claim that a radio call caused a distraction which affected flight safety.
And I reassert, that were I to be the person providing the RG aircraft, and I asked the prospective pilot: "Have you had a gear up?" and the response was: "No, so I'm going to", that pilot simply would not be flying my plane - wrong attitude!
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Step Turn.
I understand what you're trying to say, but I think you may have missed the point regarding the idea of the phrase that there are those pilots that have had a gear up landing and those that will.
My understanding of that phrase is not to absolve the pilot of any responsibility should it actually happen, but to make sure the pilot actually never loses sight of the fact that it could happen, and therefore (s)he should never become complacent.
Basically, my interpretation of this would ensure I am as careful as you would expect me to be, because if I'm not then there is a chance it could happen to me.
(That said, I have never flown an aeroplane with RG!)
I understand what you're trying to say, but I think you may have missed the point regarding the idea of the phrase that there are those pilots that have had a gear up landing and those that will.
My understanding of that phrase is not to absolve the pilot of any responsibility should it actually happen, but to make sure the pilot actually never loses sight of the fact that it could happen, and therefore (s)he should never become complacent.
Basically, my interpretation of this would ensure I am as careful as you would expect me to be, because if I'm not then there is a chance it could happen to me.
(That said, I have never flown an aeroplane with RG!)
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Dear old Step Turn, you are very starchy indeed, coming from a different discipline, one where you do stately approaches, airline style patterns with right angle turns onto base and again onto finals, with most of your flights no doubt under the useful control of ATC. And three green lights to remind you your wheels are down, AND the option to go around and fly past for observation if you think the wheels didn't go down, and a very expensive insurance claim, mess on the runway, delays to other traffic, and tea and biscuits with your employer.
A glider pilot may not be as experienced as you. And has not the option of going around, he has to get it right the first time. If landing on a farmers field, the altitude readings are guesswork, you have a lot of judgement calls to make.
If the wheel is forgotten it is no big deal for a glider. But the last minute radio call has actually been the trigger for an accident, as other posters have testified. The last little item that can ruin your entire day, just like the famous EFATO can trigger the nose high turn back to the "safety" of the airfield and end up with barbecued pilot.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Any pilot turning onto a final approach should not be distracted from his primary task by helpful unprofessional radio calls....
A glider pilot may not be as experienced as you. And has not the option of going around, he has to get it right the first time. If landing on a farmers field, the altitude readings are guesswork, you have a lot of judgement calls to make.
If the wheel is forgotten it is no big deal for a glider. But the last minute radio call has actually been the trigger for an accident, as other posters have testified. The last little item that can ruin your entire day, just like the famous EFATO can trigger the nose high turn back to the "safety" of the airfield and end up with barbecued pilot.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Any pilot turning onto a final approach should not be distracted from his primary task by helpful unprofessional radio calls....
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The phrase "you have, or you will" has been around since about the second RG plane. It's a joke. But pilots seem to have adopted it as a cultural excuse. This is a lazy mindset, there is no excuse for forgetting to properly select the landing gear.
People say "Oh' no one was hurt, it's only a bent propeller, and belly damage...". If those people feel so casual about that damage, then I hope they don't expect the insurance companies I pay premiums to, to pay for the damage. All of our rates go up. They can pay A and C directly for the repairs.
This lazy mindset, applied to amphibian flying could easily be fatal. Great attention is paid during amphibian type training to assure landing gear position, and configuration assurance - because no aircraft warning system can indicate the wrong landing gear position to the pilot. The pilot is entirely responsible for the determination, and it's really easy to get it wrong with inattention. We don't tolerate lazy thinking or excuses about landing gear.
If you are a competent pilot, you will safely manage the configuration of the aircraft in all phases of flight - configuration assurance. You will not continue into the next phase of flight, until you have assured that the aircraft is safely configured. And, you'll manage cockpit distractions at least as required to assure configuration. Or, you need more training for that aircraft type.
This is about pilot attitude. Would you stand at the booking counter for your rental, and say "I'll probably crash."? Would they rent you the plane? Saying "I'll probably land with the gear up" is not much better.....
People say "Oh' no one was hurt, it's only a bent propeller, and belly damage...". If those people feel so casual about that damage, then I hope they don't expect the insurance companies I pay premiums to, to pay for the damage. All of our rates go up. They can pay A and C directly for the repairs.
This lazy mindset, applied to amphibian flying could easily be fatal. Great attention is paid during amphibian type training to assure landing gear position, and configuration assurance - because no aircraft warning system can indicate the wrong landing gear position to the pilot. The pilot is entirely responsible for the determination, and it's really easy to get it wrong with inattention. We don't tolerate lazy thinking or excuses about landing gear.
If you are a competent pilot, you will safely manage the configuration of the aircraft in all phases of flight - configuration assurance. You will not continue into the next phase of flight, until you have assured that the aircraft is safely configured. And, you'll manage cockpit distractions at least as required to assure configuration. Or, you need more training for that aircraft type.
This is about pilot attitude. Would you stand at the booking counter for your rental, and say "I'll probably crash."? Would they rent you the plane? Saying "I'll probably land with the gear up" is not much better.....
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Oh dear; "Step Turn" please take a chill pill and relax, in your perfect world of aviation I hope you never have any kind of cockpit distraction or god forbid an incident otherwise your insurance premiums could go through the roof.
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Step Turn
I think you have missed the point about the hazard to glider pilots from the last moment radio call. It is not the call itself that causes the accident. Typically, the glider will have turned on to final at around 300'. They will have their right hand on the stick and the left operating the airbrakes. They hear a radio call telling them that their wheel is up. In most gliders the undercarriage lever is on the right side of the cockpit. They have to take their right hand off the stick, releasing the airbrake lever to place their left hand on the stick. In most gliders, the airbrakes won't stay where they are when the lever is released. This is more than likely going to cause a significant change in the previously stable approach. If they are lucky, they can get the wheel down, put their right hand back on the stick and their left on the airbrake lever, restore a stable approach, round out and land. If not...
Does this make the problem clearer?
If the undercarriage lever is on the left, they still have to release the airbrake lever to operate it. Not easy.
I think you have missed the point about the hazard to glider pilots from the last moment radio call. It is not the call itself that causes the accident. Typically, the glider will have turned on to final at around 300'. They will have their right hand on the stick and the left operating the airbrakes. They hear a radio call telling them that their wheel is up. In most gliders the undercarriage lever is on the right side of the cockpit. They have to take their right hand off the stick, releasing the airbrake lever to place their left hand on the stick. In most gliders, the airbrakes won't stay where they are when the lever is released. This is more than likely going to cause a significant change in the previously stable approach. If they are lucky, they can get the wheel down, put their right hand back on the stick and their left on the airbrake lever, restore a stable approach, round out and land. If not...
Does this make the problem clearer?If the undercarriage lever is on the left, they still have to release the airbrake lever to operate it. Not easy.
Originally Posted by Shaggy Sheep Driver
I was talking to a non-pilot a while ago and told him how a Yak52 I once had a share in had done a wheels-up landing (not by me!).
What picture does that generate in your mind?
What picture does that generate in your mind?
Given that you're asking the question, and that the response was from a non-pilot, the picture which that generated in my mind looked something like this:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Sheep Driver's non-pilot friend
"What, it landed upside down? How did that happen?"
That sort of thing has certainly happened to me before, though I usually manage to realise and burst out laughing at my preposterous alternative meaning, leaving the expert to stop and think about what they just said, rather than giving them the punchline for free.
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Does this make the problem clearer?
This is more than likely going to cause a significant change in the previously stable approach.
I am learning that gliders have a unique condition (in that a go around is not possible), so I would think that training, and circuit discipline would be employed to mitigate this.
please take a chill pill and relax, in your perfect world of aviation I hope you never have any kind of cockpit distraction
I have endured all kinds of cockpit distraction, and done my best with it. So far, far from perfect, but adequate. I have never made an insurance claim.
I am unwilling to waste my time repairing an aircraft I damaged, and I sure can't afford to pay someone else to do it, so I don't cause the damage - and everyone is happy.
Now, one of my jobs is to train amphibian pilots. Most recently in a $900,000 182. I cannot even afford the $25,000 damage deductible, should I damage it. Sliding the floats down a runway could exceed that. Landing it in the water with the wheels down, will cause a total loss claim, and probably risk to life. Not only must I not do this, I must train others not to do this. When I train pilots who have never flow RG, that sometimes you must land wheels down, and sometimes you must land wheels up, and there is nothing to tell you that you're about to do the wrong thing, there is no part way - it's right or wrong. Wrong is $$.
So, I'm generally pretty relaxed, until I see a change in flight phase coming, then, no guff, we're going to get it right, no matter how much I have to distract or scare you - I'll make it chilling - so it's memorable. To make my point, I have in the past, while training a careless pilot, waited until to later point down final (at which point I could barely get the wheels up myself, should the engine quit) and called out sharply "pull up and go around!". The then VERY distracted pilot must do that, continue to maintain control of the aircraft, and figure out why I called that with no warning. Believe me, It's unforgettable - and that's the point.
I know that it "can" happen to any of us, but it shouldn't. How could I train and send off an RG/amphibian pilot, who I believed did not understand the importance of this? Should they have a water accident in a cold, very remote lake, it will be fatal. So, I like to train it right first time, and with no room for tolerance of getting it wrong.
When you're 100 miles from the nearest other person, and 300 miles from a town, with 3 degree C water, you've got to get the gear position right the first time!
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Using cliches such as Those that have & those that will are no more than a pre-programmed excuse for the day it happens. Aviate Navigate Communicate, no more than common sense, fly the bloody thing! Zero tolerance should be applied.
As for swapping hands in a glider. I was taught not to use the air brakes as a helicopter collective but wait till they are needed, select and lock. No doubt that will enrage the gliderers on current slippery glass stuff but, I have to select stage one then stage two flaps with a right hand, throttle with the left hand , trim with the right hand, stick in the middle. However the gear is down & bolted.
As for swapping hands in a glider. I was taught not to use the air brakes as a helicopter collective but wait till they are needed, select and lock. No doubt that will enrage the gliderers on current slippery glass stuff but, I have to select stage one then stage two flaps with a right hand, throttle with the left hand , trim with the right hand, stick in the middle. However the gear is down & bolted.
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Well, even though I was rude to Step Turn, he sure does take some wonderful photographs! and is kind enough to share them at the head of our Private Flying Forum.
Only place I ever flew a seaplane was Jack Browns, in Florida. Great fun.
Only place I ever flew a seaplane was Jack Browns, in Florida. Great fun.
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I would hope that Step Turn didn't actually take that picture, beautiful place that it is.
Once watched a TV programme about a float pilot who sank it in a lake, 3 weeks later an aircraft landed and the poor sod wouldn't let go of the tail as the pilot assured him he wouldn't leave him behind.
Once watched a TV programme about a float pilot who sank it in a lake, 3 weeks later an aircraft landed and the poor sod wouldn't let go of the tail as the pilot assured him he wouldn't leave him behind.
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The key idea for me is primacy. If we teach new pilots that we expect their landing gear up as a "when" rather than remote failing "if", they won't take landing gear position seriously, and a check pilot will have to change their thinking as they grow in their career. My 11 year old daughter, has for years, recited aloud with me "Wheels are down for landing on land" or "Wheels are up for landing on water" after I state where we will be landing. So I have an 11 year old doing configuration assurance, and I'm talking aloud in the cockpit like an 11 year old!
When I take the amphibian camping, my mates always know where Ive gone, and will come for me if needed. That camping night, they all (14 friends in 7 airplanes, together on the trip) wanted to fish, I wanted to see the arctic. I made a very detailed plan, and stuck to it. I never flew more than 1/2 mile off the preagreed route, so they would know exactly where to fly to look for me, if I did not return. And, I have a SPOT and sat phone.
But I reminded myself that a very simple problem becomes very serious a long way from civilization. I was prepared for a week away alone, and to make many repairs to the plane, right up to riveting a patch if I had to.
If we are using "sayings" to reassure new pilots of how to do things right, and that they should make the effort, that's fine. But the saying can't become the lazy excuse.
This video might be of interest to pilots who take flying RG's less than totally seriously. It lengthy, and not cheery, but should be required watching in my opinion..
No Greater Burden: Surviving an Aircraft Accident - AOPA
When I take the amphibian camping, my mates always know where Ive gone, and will come for me if needed. That camping night, they all (14 friends in 7 airplanes, together on the trip) wanted to fish, I wanted to see the arctic. I made a very detailed plan, and stuck to it. I never flew more than 1/2 mile off the preagreed route, so they would know exactly where to fly to look for me, if I did not return. And, I have a SPOT and sat phone.
But I reminded myself that a very simple problem becomes very serious a long way from civilization. I was prepared for a week away alone, and to make many repairs to the plane, right up to riveting a patch if I had to.
If we are using "sayings" to reassure new pilots of how to do things right, and that they should make the effort, that's fine. But the saying can't become the lazy excuse.
This video might be of interest to pilots who take flying RG's less than totally seriously. It lengthy, and not cheery, but should be required watching in my opinion..
No Greater Burden: Surviving an Aircraft Accident - AOPA
As a retired ATCO now an AFISO, I would always tell a pilot his gear is up if his intention is to land.
I had an occurence about 3 years ago with a single engine retractable. When he made his 'final' call, I told him his gear wasn't down; waited and still it didn't come down. Told him again; still it didn't come down. On short final, I told him again, loudly, and suggested he go around; then the gear came down.
He came up the tower to thank me afterwards (no bottle of whisky included though) explaining he'd had a prop runaway and thus had been distracted.
If the pilot hears your call and elects to land as in the gliders above, it's their decision; they should be able to assess if the surface they are landing on will damage their aircraft. In the absence of a skid on modern sailplanes, I would assume the fuselage near the wheel is reinforced 'just in case', after all, if you're landing in a field somewhere having run out of lift, you'd hardly expect there to be someone there to tell you your wheel is not down.
I had an occurence about 3 years ago with a single engine retractable. When he made his 'final' call, I told him his gear wasn't down; waited and still it didn't come down. Told him again; still it didn't come down. On short final, I told him again, loudly, and suggested he go around; then the gear came down.
He came up the tower to thank me afterwards (no bottle of whisky included though) explaining he'd had a prop runaway and thus had been distracted.
If the pilot hears your call and elects to land as in the gliders above, it's their decision; they should be able to assess if the surface they are landing on will damage their aircraft. In the absence of a skid on modern sailplanes, I would assume the fuselage near the wheel is reinforced 'just in case', after all, if you're landing in a field somewhere having run out of lift, you'd hardly expect there to be someone there to tell you your wheel is not down.