Advice Please - Back in the Saddle.
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Advice Please - Back in the Saddle.
Having not flown for over 2 years I am in the process of re-instating my SEP rating. As part of that process I have set myself a goal. As an avid Southend United fan the goal I have set myself is to fly to an away game. I am actually based at Elstree, so the flight will be to and from Elstree.
The game I have earmarked is the away game at Exeter in April. I have therefore looked at airfields around there, and have come to the conclusion that the only airfield I can land at and have a realistic chance of getting home at a decent time is Exeter itself rather than somewhere such as Dunkeswell, unless someone can suggest somewhere more suitable. (I do have a night qualification, and intend to fly at night with an instructor to re-familiarise myself with night flying just in case I am late back.)
From what I have read from Exeter’s website, this is potentially expensive. That aside, I will also need to have taken off by 18.00. Given that the game will finish, and I could be in a taxi, at about 17.00, and the journey is about 20 minutes, is this realistic? Before the match, I intend to arrive at Exeter in plenty of time to uplift any fuel should I need to (I have a PA 28 and may well have some passengers with me). Is it reasonable to carry out the pre-flight inspection after landing, and before attending the match, rather than do that when I arrive back at the airport? When I arrive back at the airport I will therefore just have to double check that nothing has happened to the plane during the match, and then continue with the start-up procedure etc.?
Another consideration is landing back at Elstree. According to Eltree’s AIP textual information they are open until sunset, which on the day is just past 20.00. Assuming I take off by 18.00, would it be fair to expect to be landing before then? If not I will need to fill out an out of hours form. My understanding is that night flying starts 30 mins after sunset, is that correct? It would therefore give me another half an hour accounting for any unforeseen event.
Please don’t advise me to choose a different away match, as, for various reasons, this is the most suitable.
(Go easy with me, I’m after advice, and this is only my 2nd post!)
The game I have earmarked is the away game at Exeter in April. I have therefore looked at airfields around there, and have come to the conclusion that the only airfield I can land at and have a realistic chance of getting home at a decent time is Exeter itself rather than somewhere such as Dunkeswell, unless someone can suggest somewhere more suitable. (I do have a night qualification, and intend to fly at night with an instructor to re-familiarise myself with night flying just in case I am late back.)
From what I have read from Exeter’s website, this is potentially expensive. That aside, I will also need to have taken off by 18.00. Given that the game will finish, and I could be in a taxi, at about 17.00, and the journey is about 20 minutes, is this realistic? Before the match, I intend to arrive at Exeter in plenty of time to uplift any fuel should I need to (I have a PA 28 and may well have some passengers with me). Is it reasonable to carry out the pre-flight inspection after landing, and before attending the match, rather than do that when I arrive back at the airport? When I arrive back at the airport I will therefore just have to double check that nothing has happened to the plane during the match, and then continue with the start-up procedure etc.?
Another consideration is landing back at Elstree. According to Eltree’s AIP textual information they are open until sunset, which on the day is just past 20.00. Assuming I take off by 18.00, would it be fair to expect to be landing before then? If not I will need to fill out an out of hours form. My understanding is that night flying starts 30 mins after sunset, is that correct? It would therefore give me another half an hour accounting for any unforeseen event.
Please don’t advise me to choose a different away match, as, for various reasons, this is the most suitable.
(Go easy with me, I’m after advice, and this is only my 2nd post!)
Hi London. Welcome to Pprune.
One of the golden rules of aviation, is that 'things always take longer than you think they will'.
With this in mind, you are setting yourself up to fail, or worse, by putting such time preessure on yourself.
As to the 'Pre Flight Checks', well theres a clue in the name!
MJ
Ps. Yes, you are correct to say that 'officail dark' is generally accepted as being 30 min. after sunset.
One of the golden rules of aviation, is that 'things always take longer than you think they will'.
With this in mind, you are setting yourself up to fail, or worse, by putting such time preessure on yourself.
As to the 'Pre Flight Checks', well theres a clue in the name!
MJ
Ps. Yes, you are correct to say that 'officail dark' is generally accepted as being 30 min. after sunset.
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This is a recipe for trouble imo.
You need to be calling for start really no later than 17:40 to have a sensible chance of starting up, warming up the engine, setting up navaids etc, taxi, power-checks, getting your departure clearance, lining up and being airborne by 18:00.
Before this you need to get through booking out, security if they have it at Exeter, paying any fees such as parking etc, pre-flighting your aircraft (what if a clumsy muppet walks into your aircraft while you're at the match and damages the tail plane or perhaps a nav light? You can't skimp on pre-flighting) and loading your passengers. I would allow 30 minutes minimum for this lot, so now we're at a required 17:10 arrival at the airport.
You're assuming the taxi will be on time dead on 17:00, that you and your pax will be able to get to the taxi by dead on 17:00, and that the traffic just outside the stadium, just after a game, will be predictable. It could be 15 minutes or it could be an hour, particularly if there are road closures associated with the game.
If you did get to the airport say by 17:30, would you be tempted to skimp on something to make the 18:00 deadline? Maybe don't do full pre-flight? Maybe don't do full power checks? Get-there-itis is not clever, but always makes for an interesting read in AAIB reports, if a little sobering.
Personally I wouldn't recommend another away match cos I dislike football, but you could try rugby instead.
You need to be calling for start really no later than 17:40 to have a sensible chance of starting up, warming up the engine, setting up navaids etc, taxi, power-checks, getting your departure clearance, lining up and being airborne by 18:00.
Before this you need to get through booking out, security if they have it at Exeter, paying any fees such as parking etc, pre-flighting your aircraft (what if a clumsy muppet walks into your aircraft while you're at the match and damages the tail plane or perhaps a nav light? You can't skimp on pre-flighting) and loading your passengers. I would allow 30 minutes minimum for this lot, so now we're at a required 17:10 arrival at the airport.
You're assuming the taxi will be on time dead on 17:00, that you and your pax will be able to get to the taxi by dead on 17:00, and that the traffic just outside the stadium, just after a game, will be predictable. It could be 15 minutes or it could be an hour, particularly if there are road closures associated with the game.
If you did get to the airport say by 17:30, would you be tempted to skimp on something to make the 18:00 deadline? Maybe don't do full pre-flight? Maybe don't do full power checks? Get-there-itis is not clever, but always makes for an interesting read in AAIB reports, if a little sobering.
Personally I wouldn't recommend another away match cos I dislike football, but you could try rugby instead.
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You didn't mention the type of aircraft , may i suggest a four seater like a c172 or a PA28 then you can share this experience with all your fellow Southend United fans.
Who's going to be Mr. popular and get his pie and bovril bought for him?
Who's going to be Mr. popular and get his pie and bovril bought for him?
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London Blue, please DONT! ! ! ! ! !
The first line in your message reads "having not flown for over two years!"
Unless you go by yourself. It is not sensible with such a lack of experience and currency to plan to take anyone with you and to lay your credibility on the line; you wouldn't want to impress friends as being unprepared, your ego would be involved. And it wouldn't be much fun to travel and attend a game by yourself....please please drive, use the motorway, stay overnight.
Exeter is not an easy place to go. Devon weather is often dodgy. Yes, by all means, fly to Exeter, or even to Cornwall. But go solo. And don't combine it with attendance at a football match, that adds too much pressure altogether. A long flight by yourself is a real achievement, and you are the only one at risk. Don't paint yourself into a corner. It could have a very unpleasant ending.
When you have done a few big trips on your own you may have a better understanding of the old saying "if you have time to spare, go by air"!
The first line in your message reads "having not flown for over two years!"
Unless you go by yourself. It is not sensible with such a lack of experience and currency to plan to take anyone with you and to lay your credibility on the line; you wouldn't want to impress friends as being unprepared, your ego would be involved. And it wouldn't be much fun to travel and attend a game by yourself....please please drive, use the motorway, stay overnight.
Exeter is not an easy place to go. Devon weather is often dodgy. Yes, by all means, fly to Exeter, or even to Cornwall. But go solo. And don't combine it with attendance at a football match, that adds too much pressure altogether. A long flight by yourself is a real achievement, and you are the only one at risk. Don't paint yourself into a corner. It could have a very unpleasant ending.
When you have done a few big trips on your own you may have a better understanding of the old saying "if you have time to spare, go by air"!
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Despite being East Anglian based I love flying into Exeter. It's very GA friendly and has all the Navaids a PPL should need. Mind you, I am slightly biased having done my IMC there and, in fact, making my first solo post PPL out of there.
I'd say what's the hurry, enjoy the flight down there and then meander back the next day. In fact, I'd go the scenic route too, travel east of London then along the south coast. You've got airspace to traverse round the Bournemouth area but the views you get over IoW and Poole Harbour take some beating.
This flying lark is supposed to be fun, remember.
Booking out and security is pretty efficient at Exeter, you can sometimes get held up though waiting departure if there is a Flybe on approach.
I'd say what's the hurry, enjoy the flight down there and then meander back the next day. In fact, I'd go the scenic route too, travel east of London then along the south coast. You've got airspace to traverse round the Bournemouth area but the views you get over IoW and Poole Harbour take some beating.
This flying lark is supposed to be fun, remember.
Booking out and security is pretty efficient at Exeter, you can sometimes get held up though waiting departure if there is a Flybe on approach.
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First of all - forget the naysayers. The proposed trip is 6 months away, so plenty of time to get yourself up to speed for it.
Exeter, from a GA perspective, is dead easy. You can either prepay your parking and landing on the Aviation South West website (Aviation South West - THE Exeter flying training school handling GA Aircraft on behalf of Exeter Airport) or in person in their offices - I'd recommend the former to save time. Booking out - file a flight plan beforehand, another 2 minutes saved. Security - get an access card from Aviation South West before you leave, give it to the man at the security gate, you're only a short walk from the aircraft.
Route: Exeter - Thruxton - Wycombe - Elstree. 131nm, so call it 1H30 Brakes on to Brakes off.
The secret of all trips like this.1) Whatever you can do before you leave the aircraft, you do. Fuelling, admin etc. That gives you time when you need it later, and you even have 30 minutes "wriggle room" at the end of the day. 2) With the plan in place, know that it will work, don't let any small problems stress you out - because they are what will cost you time. Less haste, more speed.
Exeter, from a GA perspective, is dead easy. You can either prepay your parking and landing on the Aviation South West website (Aviation South West - THE Exeter flying training school handling GA Aircraft on behalf of Exeter Airport) or in person in their offices - I'd recommend the former to save time. Booking out - file a flight plan beforehand, another 2 minutes saved. Security - get an access card from Aviation South West before you leave, give it to the man at the security gate, you're only a short walk from the aircraft.
Route: Exeter - Thruxton - Wycombe - Elstree. 131nm, so call it 1H30 Brakes on to Brakes off.
The secret of all trips like this.1) Whatever you can do before you leave the aircraft, you do. Fuelling, admin etc. That gives you time when you need it later, and you even have 30 minutes "wriggle room" at the end of the day. 2) With the plan in place, know that it will work, don't let any small problems stress you out - because they are what will cost you time. Less haste, more speed.
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Freedom and adventure are motivational factors in private aviation and I think that's what is driving you to embark on the aforementioned journey. However though, ask yourself some serious questions in relation to your competencies to undertake the anticipated adventure flight.
Remember that gravitational forces have no mercy when it comes to aviation failures. After two years of not flying, you're basically going to start all over again. To keep things simple, I would advise to do the following:
1- Get an instructor to help you get back to the aviation ecosystem.
You need to refresh on both theoretical knowledge and practical flying aspects. Part of it will be flight planning.
2- After your engagement with an instructor, do some local flying first to build up your confidence of flying alone.
3- If you're not quite sure, get a pilot friend to fly with you.
The essence is to appropriately address the underlying risk factors and avoid the potential threat of becoming part of aviation statistics.
Your narrative is a clear indication that you're uncomfortable about your aviation competencies. Flight planning is really a simple task that a pilot must be able to accomplish. If that's not the case, you are subjecting yourself to avoidable risks.
Enjoy and be a wise pilot. Stay on the ground if you are not fit to fly. That's a simple rule.
WP
Remember that gravitational forces have no mercy when it comes to aviation failures. After two years of not flying, you're basically going to start all over again. To keep things simple, I would advise to do the following:
1- Get an instructor to help you get back to the aviation ecosystem.
You need to refresh on both theoretical knowledge and practical flying aspects. Part of it will be flight planning.
2- After your engagement with an instructor, do some local flying first to build up your confidence of flying alone.
3- If you're not quite sure, get a pilot friend to fly with you.
The essence is to appropriately address the underlying risk factors and avoid the potential threat of becoming part of aviation statistics.
Your narrative is a clear indication that you're uncomfortable about your aviation competencies. Flight planning is really a simple task that a pilot must be able to accomplish. If that's not the case, you are subjecting yourself to avoidable risks.
Enjoy and be a wise pilot. Stay on the ground if you are not fit to fly. That's a simple rule.
WP
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Some saying go some saying no, I would say plan on going but have back ups, look at it the day before and be prepared to drive or go by train. I would certainly agree with those that say stay overnight, that means you can do it without the time pressure, if you do that I see no reason not to take passengers - and any passengers should understand you might need to cancel the flight their OR back!Yes you can do some of the preflight beforehand but as said it normally takes longer than expected to get into the air - you have a long time before this flight so try timing a few times how long it takes you - maybe try booking first slot, go in when flying finishes the day before and see what preflight you can do beforehand (not much that will not need repeating IMHO, as said, fuel and oil can be done, but still need checking - not unknown for thieves to siphon aircraft fuel!) and then see how long it takes to get airborne next morning without rushing things. If you do try and get home at the end of the day have a cut off time to throw it away and stick to this time!
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Thanks all for your feedback. There are a number of interesting points from a number of people, so instead of replying to them all individually, here goes:
The match is in April. I have a whole week booked in December with an instructor to get back up to speed. I then intend to fly regularly up until April (6 months), so I don’t believe currency etc. will be an issue.
Just because I haven’t flown, doesn’t mean I haven’t planned flights (sad I know) so I also don’t believe flight planning will be an issue. (Although at this stage execution of a plan might be – but see the point above.)
I don’t believe having a taxi waiting for me would be difficult. However, I do agree that the 20 minutes from the ground to the airport is best case, therefore any delay would start to cut into my time. One thing I would never do (because I am about the most anal person I have ever met) is shorten the pre-flight checks. I would rather take off late than do that…hence the question about whether or not it would be sensible to carry out part of that process once I have landed, and am waiting for fuel.
My job is all about process improvement and having contingencies, and that is something I allow to spill over into “real life”. Because I don’t have an IMC, I would always have a back-up that involved driving. (The train would be out because I have no intention of buying a ticket in advance that might not be needed, or paying through the nose to buy one on the day.)
What you have all really done is confirm what I already thought: that although this is possible, it is probably a tad too tight on time, with very little contingency. The idea of staying over is certainly one worth exploring, and (believe it or not) one I hadn’t thought of!
On a less serious note:
I am 44 years old, and have been a Southend season ticket holder since I was 2. Any jokes about Southend’s lack of fans/success are not new, and are water off a ducks back! I also live about a 5 minute drive from Arsenal’s training ground in Shenley, but have still managed to ingrain Southend United into my two boys (aged 6 and 4), the elder of which already has a season ticket, and the other will next season. I consider that my greatest footballing achievement – even if the older one also has an Arsenal kit! They will both be attending tomorrow’s FA Cup match against Chester, and I couldn’t be prouder!
As for Rugby rather than football: My wife and I found out last week we have won (through the public ballot) tickets to the England vs Wales game at Twickenham in the RWC – roll on 26th September 2015!
The match is in April. I have a whole week booked in December with an instructor to get back up to speed. I then intend to fly regularly up until April (6 months), so I don’t believe currency etc. will be an issue.
Just because I haven’t flown, doesn’t mean I haven’t planned flights (sad I know) so I also don’t believe flight planning will be an issue. (Although at this stage execution of a plan might be – but see the point above.)
I don’t believe having a taxi waiting for me would be difficult. However, I do agree that the 20 minutes from the ground to the airport is best case, therefore any delay would start to cut into my time. One thing I would never do (because I am about the most anal person I have ever met) is shorten the pre-flight checks. I would rather take off late than do that…hence the question about whether or not it would be sensible to carry out part of that process once I have landed, and am waiting for fuel.
My job is all about process improvement and having contingencies, and that is something I allow to spill over into “real life”. Because I don’t have an IMC, I would always have a back-up that involved driving. (The train would be out because I have no intention of buying a ticket in advance that might not be needed, or paying through the nose to buy one on the day.)
What you have all really done is confirm what I already thought: that although this is possible, it is probably a tad too tight on time, with very little contingency. The idea of staying over is certainly one worth exploring, and (believe it or not) one I hadn’t thought of!
On a less serious note:
I am 44 years old, and have been a Southend season ticket holder since I was 2. Any jokes about Southend’s lack of fans/success are not new, and are water off a ducks back! I also live about a 5 minute drive from Arsenal’s training ground in Shenley, but have still managed to ingrain Southend United into my two boys (aged 6 and 4), the elder of which already has a season ticket, and the other will next season. I consider that my greatest footballing achievement – even if the older one also has an Arsenal kit! They will both be attending tomorrow’s FA Cup match against Chester, and I couldn’t be prouder!
As for Rugby rather than football: My wife and I found out last week we have won (through the public ballot) tickets to the England vs Wales game at Twickenham in the RWC – roll on 26th September 2015!
Last edited by londonblue; 7th Nov 2014 at 12:50.
One other thing that I don't see in the replies. Don't forget that if you are carrying passengers after sunset, you need to have done a night landing as one of the 3 during the previous 90 days so that needs thinking about in the run up planning.
It's all pointing to a night stay in Exeter (probably without a drink) and an early morning departure. It is worth checking the parking rates there because from my memory, overnight for the aircraft is more than for the pilot.
It's all pointing to a night stay in Exeter (probably without a drink) and an early morning departure. It is worth checking the parking rates there because from my memory, overnight for the aircraft is more than for the pilot.
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As a lesser experienced pilot, get the recent experience you need to be competent, and then some. Then, plan to remove as many time limitations as possible. I'm honestly not familiar with the local factors of your planned trip, but if you're watching a clock for a planned day trip, and before you start out there is a time pinch point to within an hour, you have a problem - good chance it'll not work out.
The other thing to consider and compare, is that it sounds as though you would like to be the organizer, the pilot, and a guest within the one trip. That means that your are spreading your recently restored skills in piloting within three roles, so piloting is not getting all the attention. Thinking of this differently, if your best buddies asked you to fly them to place X, so they could watch the game, while you waited with the plane to take them home when the game was over (so now you have only the one role), would you assure them that you could accomplish that one task delay free? For myself I'd enter even that with caution - without adding the other two roles on top.
If you have a contingency, that's fine (actually it's pretty well mandatory here) . But I'd plan the contingency (staying overnight) as your "Plan A", and maybe fly home same day as your "Plan B", if everything is going very well - which is unusual in day trip planning in GA. If everyone on your trip is unwilling to stay over, they certainly should not be departing with you in the first place - just trust me on that one....
I like to encourage people to use GA planes for their person adventures, but I always do it with out airline's "inside voice" motto in mind: "Time to spare, go by air".
The other thing to consider and compare, is that it sounds as though you would like to be the organizer, the pilot, and a guest within the one trip. That means that your are spreading your recently restored skills in piloting within three roles, so piloting is not getting all the attention. Thinking of this differently, if your best buddies asked you to fly them to place X, so they could watch the game, while you waited with the plane to take them home when the game was over (so now you have only the one role), would you assure them that you could accomplish that one task delay free? For myself I'd enter even that with caution - without adding the other two roles on top.
If you have a contingency, that's fine (actually it's pretty well mandatory here) . But I'd plan the contingency (staying overnight) as your "Plan A", and maybe fly home same day as your "Plan B", if everything is going very well - which is unusual in day trip planning in GA. If everyone on your trip is unwilling to stay over, they certainly should not be departing with you in the first place - just trust me on that one....
I like to encourage people to use GA planes for their person adventures, but I always do it with out airline's "inside voice" motto in mind: "Time to spare, go by air".
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I hope that any passengers you are planning to transport are consenting adults...or were you thinking of taking your two boys, aged six and four?
Its bad enough being stuck on the M5 for three hours inching along. It is worse having a little kid strapped in the back of your PA28, bored, airsick, needing to use the toilet. Are we there yet?
Its bad enough being stuck on the M5 for three hours inching along. It is worse having a little kid strapped in the back of your PA28, bored, airsick, needing to use the toilet. Are we there yet?
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In answer to your further points:
I do realise that, should I need to fly at night with passengers, one of my 3 landings and take offs within the 90 days would have to be at night. That would be taken care of, and then some.
The passengers are indeed consenting adults, if they decide to come with. I have no intention of taking my boys in the plane for a few years yet; they're too restless and would distract me too much. They're bad enough in the car!
I do realise that, should I need to fly at night with passengers, one of my 3 landings and take offs within the 90 days would have to be at night. That would be taken care of, and then some.
The passengers are indeed consenting adults, if they decide to come with. I have no intention of taking my boys in the plane for a few years yet; they're too restless and would distract me too much. They're bad enough in the car!
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A late kick off or a delay getting out of the ground or some April weather would compromise your plan to get home in daylight. Avoid the presson-itis and stay overnight.
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Just a very quick update.
I passed my LPC a couple of weeks ago, and am now awaiting my shiny new EASA license.
However, the Exeter game is now not going to happen, I have booked tickets to see Les Mis in the West End that night!
I passed my LPC a couple of weeks ago, and am now awaiting my shiny new EASA license.
However, the Exeter game is now not going to happen, I have booked tickets to see Les Mis in the West End that night!
