Flying with another pilot who "handles" the controls

[tmmorris]

Chevvron, I've always been a bit concerned that actually cadets are taught to say 'I have control, SIR'. Drumming in the authority gradient from day 1..?

[Fitter2]

Long ago in gliding, the phrases used were 'I have control' and 'It's all yours' which in a noisy environment (tandem open cockpit) meant there was no possible confusion.

With some of the headsets/intercoms I have met, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[AerocatS2A]

Scoobster, I would absolutely NOT put up with any touching of the controls. Is it ok to make a few corrections to the steering wheel of a car when you are the passenger? Do you think an experienced airline pilot flying as a passenger would waltz into the cockpit (pre 9/11 security doors), adjust the thrust levers, and wander back into the cabin? Regardless of his experience, your friend is a PASSENGER and has all the authority to manipulate the controls as any other passenger unless you have specifically briefed otherwise. As for the altitude calls, I would expect him to stay silent unless you've briefed him otherwise. Going back to the passenger in a car analogy, you wouldn't be chattering to the driver about "orange light ahead, stop sign, you seem a bit fast to smoothly achieve a complete stop here" etc. However it's ok to say "****, lookout car to the right!" in order to avoid an accident. There is a thick line between nattering about minor procedural variances and speaking up to avoid a catastrophe. In my opinion the first is a no-no while the latter is expected.

You are the PiC and they are a passenger, it is not a multi-crew aircraft and you are not trained multi-crew pilots. Multi-crew SOPs only work when both parties are following the same SOPs and know what to expect from one another.

[vancouv]

you wouldn't be chattering to the driver about "orange light ahead, stop sign, you seem a bit fast to smoothly achieve a complete stop here"

You obviously haven't met my wife

[localflighteast]

I don't know about in the UK but over here there is nothing in the PPL syllabus about passenger management.
I think that's a bit of an oversight TBH.

I'm going to be taking up my first passengers soon and am winging it a bit .
Of course then there's the whole other issue of flying with my OH , who is also a pilot.

[darkroomsource]

I think it all goes back to having a chat (preflight brief) with the other pilot about who's PIC, and who does what, before the flight.
Then it's easy to say "ah ah, why you do that?"
But if you don't have that chat, then the other person may have a completely different view of what they're doing, and if you question them they will be surprised.

[9 lives]

But if you don't have that chat, then the other person may have a completely different view of what they're doing,

I'd wonder why... If I board a plane for a flight which I have not "made happen", in someone else's plane, I would not presume to be acting in the capacity of a crew member unless invited to do so. In a single pilot plane, you're either "crew" with a role, because you are the pilot, or the pilot has invited you to participate. Otherwise you are a passenger - don't touch stuff!

[Big Pistons Forever]

One challenge can be when the "passenger " who is a pilot is a lot more experienced than the PIC.

As I am an experienced pilot I have experienced this dynamic. The danger is the PIC can subconsciously feel that the guy in the right seat will bail him out if things are not going well but at the same time the experienced pilot not wanting to confuse the issue may feel reluctant to take over and in a fast moving situation intervention may be fatally delayed.

To get around this issue when flying with a low time, or inexperienced pilot, I tell them I want the ability to take control at any time and that he will relinquish control on demand and without question. I emphasize I will only do this if I believe a dangerous situation is developing. If the PiC is not happy to do this, I absolutely respect that but I will not fly with them.

The other issue is that it is hard for instructors to turn off the instructor gene. Again a preflight discussion is required to find out whether the pilot would like some advice as the flight progresses or he just wants to get on with things . Subject to the ability to take control proviso I am very happy to just enjoy the scenery and keep my mouth shut or provide a bit if help we just need to decide what the pilot wants before takeoff

[Aubrey.]

Before lessons in the final run up to my skills test for my license, my instructor expected a full and thorough pre-flight briefing on exactly what to do and what not to do in the cockpit. He played the role of a passenger and asked dumb questions. I found this approach helped and I've now developed a detailed pre-flight passenger brief that I hope covers every aspect of the flight. I have it written down and go through it with all my pax before a flight, step-by-step just like a checklist. One of the items is I will fly the aircraft and you please don't touch any of the controls unless I ask you to.

[Scoobster]

There are some valid points above and what I should have also mentioned is that the buddy in the RHS was a more experienced pilot. HOWEVER, I am equally trained to a high standard and would absolutely and categorically not put the life of another pilot or my own life in danger.

It was a mutually agreed flight as a buddy and I just did not expect the "fiddling".. However, thinking from a Psychological Perspective I would imagine it is probably hard for another person who is also a pilot not to make comparisons and think they are better. This is just human nature.

What I have learned for the next time is to define clear boundaries and expectations prior to taking off with a thorough pre-flight brief. Or just go up on my own and practice drills, nav, go to new places etc. We did have a brief but clearly on this occasion the controls aspect was not as thorough as it should have been.

I am by no means an experienced pilot with thousands of hours yet but I know myself I would certainly not manipulate controls if not asked.

When I first went up with my Instructor in my first few hours, I used to grab the door handle as the instructor threw the plane about .. Until the instructor piped up "I wish you wouldn't grab onto the door like that! Trust me, I'm not going to let anything happen to you!'.

That was enough for me...

Scoobster

[ChickenHouse]

I take this conversation as a token for the old insight that an experienced pilot is not necessarily a good pilot.

1. NO-ONE ever fumbles on my controls without asking - neither the A380 captain on the right seat, nor some also-pilot, nor somebody else.
2. Second, there is always exactly one PIC - never ever is there more then one on the controls.
3. Third, if controls are to change - there is NO other way as "You have control / I have control".

There may be rare occasions during first flight lessons, where FI or FE is helping to avoid damage to crew and plane, but even than, it should be the absolut exception.

This is one of the crew management golden rules, that I was taught during training lessons long time ago and this is one of the things which I always try to remember.

The good pilots on the right seat know exactly this and that is one of the reasons they are the better ones. A well pilot would, at most, talk and give some comments, if felt the situation allows.

[Broadlands]

Interfering passengers

A few years ago I was doing some work for an aerial photography outfit. The photographer kept adding his own inputs, eg increasing bank for a better view, all at relatively low level.

I warned him but after a further interruption politely told him that the flight was terminated. back on the ground I explained the facts of life and refused to work for them again.

Summary. Be open to suggestion, but the is only one PIC.

[Heston]

Was going to add my own comment to this thread - but there's no need as the two posts above #31 and #32 say all that needs to be said: Zero tolerance.

[mad_jock]

I think you lot are just being way to polite.

Using basic Scottish crm skills you can sort the problem very easy.

"hoy , touch one more thing and I will break your fingers off and ram them right up your you "

Problem sorted in my experience.

[Crash one]

My previous post of

Crash one
A gentle reminder of "I have control" as they touch something, followed by a positive discussion along the lines of "please leave things alone without telling me first, you are putting me off".

Now seems a bit soft.
I think I'd prefer the Mad Jock approach.

[sunday driver]

Before RHS gets in, slide the seat as far back as it will go.
Problem solved?
SD

[mad_jock]

Honestly there is only one PIC on board don't fanny around just bloody tell them.

[150commuter]

I've had two experiences of this from opposite perspectives.
In one, very soon after take-off, the aircraft slowed alarmingly and despite lowering the nose continued to slow. It took me a moment to realise that it was of course a full flap application. This was though in a C150 where 40 degrees means you're definiltely not going up. Realising that meant problem quickly solved, but not quickly enough to avoid being unpleasantly close to the trees. My companion had decided to adjust the cabin air without telling me first and had knocked down the flap switch which emphasises touch nothing without asking if you're not the PH and especially not at 500ft. Had I done it- It's happened to me once or twice since without any drama- I'd have known where my hand had just been and reacted faster.

The other with another fellow pilot was while he was P1 for a channel crossing. He'd been very fixated on getting his new GPS to work before departure and was still fretting over it during the climb out. It was a rather hazy day so the horizon was poor and a couple of miles out from Folkestone I realised that we were going into a spiral dive. I took control- probably I'm afraid without waiting for his response- and got us S&L and pointing back towards the coast and a decent horizon and then gave it back. He told me later that he'd become disoriented and I'm guessing that was due to focussing on the GPS. I later heard rumours that he'd more than once relied on P2 to get him out of trouble but I hadn't known that and had no reason to doubt his competence. I never flew with him again and thankfully he gave up flying a few months later.

[piperboy84]

If I'm flying with a non pilot:
Preflight instruction is keep you feet flat on the floor during TO and landing, only touch the controls if I offer, and if the weather or vis is dodgy i prefer not to converse on TO or landing

If flying with a pilot with the same qualifications as myself:
Again, feet flat on the floor and that's about it

If I am flying with a seasoned pilot or an instructor but not under instruction:I don't give a preflight, and I will listen to advice but I am PIC and my unsaid expectation is he/she is professional enough not to faff around with anything unless asked or only if it's a life and death deal

That all being said, when I'm a front seat passenger in the car with the better half I constantly piss around with the GPS, radio and any buttons within reach to the point she raps my knuckles and tells me to f**k *ff

[surely not]

Ok I'm not a pilot, but relating this across to other times in my life is it not worth considering the following:

You say he is more experienced than you, so why not grab a coffee with him and tell him you've noticed him 'twiddling/fiddling' and ask if he has some valid input to your flying to make it safer. That way you are deferring to his greater knowledge and experience, plus showing a willingness to learn and NOT being confrontational.

If what he says makes sense then it is a win win in that he feels good helping you, and you feel good because you have improved your airmanship.

If what he says doesn't make sense then just acknowledge his ideas,

In both cases ask him to respect that you are PIC and to speak to you before doing anything to give you the opportunity to make the decision as PIC.

You don't come across as a person who enjoys putting someone in their place harshly, and this way gives a chance for friendship to survive.