Where is the prop?
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Where is the prop?
So I am waiting for my DE to show up for my commercial checkride on Sunday and he arrives rather late, his excuse? He had a student taxi into position and hold and go to full throttle, upon reaching full RPM there is loud banging and the cowling gets all twisted, he gets out and notices there is only a six inch stub left of the prop on one side with no ground strike visible. A search of the area revealed nothing.
So here's a question for you engineering types, one side of the prop turning at 2500rpm flies off not touching the ground, what would be the distance it could travel?
So here's a question for you engineering types, one side of the prop turning at 2500rpm flies off not touching the ground, what would be the distance it could travel?
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So that's what went over!
I'm not good enough with math to work out the numbers, but that is a highly alarming situation. Did the examiner stay what kind of prop/engine it had been? It's probably a wonder that the engine is still in the mounts!
I'm not good enough with math to work out the numbers, but that is a highly alarming situation. Did the examiner stay what kind of prop/engine it had been? It's probably a wonder that the engine is still in the mounts!
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The way he described it it sounds like the whole front end/firewall is twisted too hell, the cowling got totally bent, he had a photo of the stub, it was interesting to see there were different surfaces across the breaking point, one part smooth the other pitted.
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Depends how heavy it is and what angle its come off at. The force required to hold it in the hub is mass x radius x 4 x PI(SQ) that lot divided by the time for one revolution squared. I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 500m away but would be over Km. You have to use a bit of calculus to work out the equivalent radius and mass of a point mass spinning round the centre of rotation.
Once had a screw up doing what I thought was an inappropriately large volume of pressure test on a live test pressure pipe system to be rated and proofed at 50bar for the oil industry.
Normally we would fill them full of water so keep the volume of air down so if it did go bang things wouldn't move much.
But oh no this one had to be full of gas at extremely high pressure.
Did it at the weekend so nobody was in the building apart from us and some radiographers.
I had arranged everything so valves plus attachments were pointed towards the outside of the building pointing slightly up.
Nested behind 4 thick of rail sleepers watching the pressure increase we were just getting to the soak pressure ready to shut the supply off to see if there was any leaks, strain gauges were looking good and about to give a sigh of relief when the was an almighty bang.
A 175kg valve had blown off a 20" dia pipe with a 24" OD flange ripped the bolts right through the flange.
Never saw that again either and when I went outside across the bay all I could see was the backside of a supply boat going into Aberdeen harbour in the general direction of where it had been pointing. It was a worrying couple of hours listening to Northsound for reports of a supply boat sunk in front of Torry battery.
Once had a screw up doing what I thought was an inappropriately large volume of pressure test on a live test pressure pipe system to be rated and proofed at 50bar for the oil industry.
Normally we would fill them full of water so keep the volume of air down so if it did go bang things wouldn't move much.
But oh no this one had to be full of gas at extremely high pressure.
Did it at the weekend so nobody was in the building apart from us and some radiographers.
I had arranged everything so valves plus attachments were pointed towards the outside of the building pointing slightly up.
Nested behind 4 thick of rail sleepers watching the pressure increase we were just getting to the soak pressure ready to shut the supply off to see if there was any leaks, strain gauges were looking good and about to give a sigh of relief when the was an almighty bang.
A 175kg valve had blown off a 20" dia pipe with a 24" OD flange ripped the bolts right through the flange.
Never saw that again either and when I went outside across the bay all I could see was the backside of a supply boat going into Aberdeen harbour in the general direction of where it had been pointing. It was a worrying couple of hours listening to Northsound for reports of a supply boat sunk in front of Torry battery.
Last edited by mad_jock; 28th Oct 2014 at 21:52.
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Back of the envelope, worst case scenario math here.
I'm assuming that it's just the very tip of the prop that separated (as that's rotating the fastest), and I'm not incorporating any aerodynamic drag or other effect here (if that prop bit becomes a glider-like object, then it can travel for tens or hundreds of miles).
I'm also assuming that the prop tip at redline RPM is near-supersonic speed (300 m/s), but in reality it will be less, perhaps just 90% of that number. And if a significant bit of the prop is broken off, like you said, the initial speed of that separated bit will be some sort of weighted average of the whole separated bit, not the speed of the tip.
Having said that, here's the math:
If the prop tip is separated and goes straight up, the altitude reached is v^2/2g = 90000/20 = 4.5 km. But obviously you'd eventually find the prop tip back, right next to the plane. The time it takes to fly up and fall back down is 2 * ( v/g ) = 2 * 300 / 10 = 60 seconds.
If the prop tip separates on a 45 degree angle (more or less the optimal angle to get maximum distance) the initial vertical speed is 300 / sqrt(2) = 212 m/s. The altitude reached is 2.25 km and the time it takes to fall back to the earth is 42 seconds. In that 42 seconds the tip can travel a horizontal distance of 8.9 km. (Again, I'm not considering a deceleration due to aerodynamic drag here.)
So that 8.9km is your absolute upper limit. But in reality it will be far, far less than that. A wooden prop tip will incur significant drag, especially when traveling at near-supersonic speed and while tumbling. How to calculate that is beyond my ability, unfortunately. Still, I would not be surprised if you eventually find the prop tip maybe half a kilometer away.
I'm assuming that it's just the very tip of the prop that separated (as that's rotating the fastest), and I'm not incorporating any aerodynamic drag or other effect here (if that prop bit becomes a glider-like object, then it can travel for tens or hundreds of miles).
I'm also assuming that the prop tip at redline RPM is near-supersonic speed (300 m/s), but in reality it will be less, perhaps just 90% of that number. And if a significant bit of the prop is broken off, like you said, the initial speed of that separated bit will be some sort of weighted average of the whole separated bit, not the speed of the tip.
Having said that, here's the math:
If the prop tip is separated and goes straight up, the altitude reached is v^2/2g = 90000/20 = 4.5 km. But obviously you'd eventually find the prop tip back, right next to the plane. The time it takes to fly up and fall back down is 2 * ( v/g ) = 2 * 300 / 10 = 60 seconds.
If the prop tip separates on a 45 degree angle (more or less the optimal angle to get maximum distance) the initial vertical speed is 300 / sqrt(2) = 212 m/s. The altitude reached is 2.25 km and the time it takes to fall back to the earth is 42 seconds. In that 42 seconds the tip can travel a horizontal distance of 8.9 km. (Again, I'm not considering a deceleration due to aerodynamic drag here.)
So that 8.9km is your absolute upper limit. But in reality it will be far, far less than that. A wooden prop tip will incur significant drag, especially when traveling at near-supersonic speed and while tumbling. How to calculate that is beyond my ability, unfortunately. Still, I would not be surprised if you eventually find the prop tip maybe half a kilometer away.
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Probably not too far. Early guns fired projectiles at near supersonic speeds but with no rifling in the barrel, the projectile just tumbled and air resistance brought the thing down to earth in short measure. It wasn't until rifling was introduced that distances increased. Having said that, even if it only flew 500m I'm sure you'll struggle to find it.
I'm slightly surprised that the engine stayed mounted. The out-of-balance forces will have been high and the (few) designs I've seen don't look to have a superabundance of lateral strength.
I'm slightly surprised that the engine stayed mounted. The out-of-balance forces will have been high and the (few) designs I've seen don't look to have a superabundance of lateral strength.
I've had model helicopter blades come off at slower tip speeds of around 200mph. Thankfully they don't go more than a few tends of yards. They presumably tumble and slow down quite quickly.
Wind turbines that overspeed can fling their blades 2-500 metres.
It's not going to be an easy problem to solve analytically. When you find the debris, let us know the answer.
Wind turbines that overspeed can fling their blades 2-500 metres.
It's not going to be an easy problem to solve analytically. When you find the debris, let us know the answer.
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A 172?!? May we please have a link to a formal report of this when it's available? This sounds critically serious, I'd like to know the details. There's got to be something to learn from this!
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There is a bit of a political dimension to the story, I am not sure how the broken aircraft has been handled, as i understand it, it has just been towed to an on-field repair station, however I assume when the insurance gets involved there will also be some type of governmental agency report. In the meantime there is a lot of controversy surrounding the continued use of the facility as an airfield and a ballot measure scheduled for vote soon to determine the fields future that is generating huge amounts of press locally.
It probably would not help matters if some neighbor staggers out their garden with a Sensenich sticking out of his head. The best they can hope for is it is never found, or at least not till the ballot is over and perhaps during the forthcoming rainy season a roof inspection on one of the neighboring houses will reveal a prop impaled on the roof as the leak source.
As far are maintenance goes, the current owner is a friend of mine of 20 years and used to leaseback my aircraft, he is a totally no expense spared guy when it comes to maintenance, and the shop who does the maintenance is very highly regarded, the previous owner of the plane (a big shot movie star with plenty money to spend on maintenance) had the plane for quite some time and used the same repair shop as the current owner so I wouldn't think that is the issue. The owner thinks the cause is probably a manufacturing defect.
Will keep you updated.
It probably would not help matters if some neighbor staggers out their garden with a Sensenich sticking out of his head. The best they can hope for is it is never found, or at least not till the ballot is over and perhaps during the forthcoming rainy season a roof inspection on one of the neighboring houses will reveal a prop impaled on the roof as the leak source.
As far are maintenance goes, the current owner is a friend of mine of 20 years and used to leaseback my aircraft, he is a totally no expense spared guy when it comes to maintenance, and the shop who does the maintenance is very highly regarded, the previous owner of the plane (a big shot movie star with plenty money to spend on maintenance) had the plane for quite some time and used the same repair shop as the current owner so I wouldn't think that is the issue. The owner thinks the cause is probably a manufacturing defect.
Will keep you updated.
The owner thinks the cause is probably a manufacturing defect.
How old was the prop? When did it last have an overhaul/calendar inspection?
I'd say more likely caused by an un reported prop strike or corrosion.
I really hope they find the true cause.
Some on here will remember the Lycoming crankshaft issue. There was a crankshaft which broke near the prop flange in the UK. The cause was determined to be due to internal corrosion in the hollow part of the crankshaft. Some time later it was discovered that that aircraft had had a prop strike which was the real reason for the crankshaft breaking. However not before many crankshafts were unnecessarily replaced at great expense.
Last edited by 27/09; 29th Oct 2014 at 06:00.
Originally Posted by piperboy84
...he had a photo of the stub, it was interesting to see there were different surfaces across the breaking point, one part smooth the other pitted.
Originally Posted by piperboy84
It was a C172 , metal prop.
If you search for images of "fatigue failure" on google you'll see many examples of similar failures:
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A material issue is a possibility. The occlusion then leads to a stress raiser which then leads to fatigue.
It will be relatively simple to spot as you have the remaining fracture surface.
As a matter of interest any chance you could get a picture of the surface?
It will be relatively simple to spot as you have the remaining fracture surface.
As a matter of interest any chance you could get a picture of the surface?
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Once heard of an industrial generation type gas turbine which lost a turbine disc...somewhere in the world - this is going back decades now. (I was in the business)
So I was told it exited out horizontally from the engine/casing, out though the canopy/noise protection. continued through the site and through the site fence, crossed a road, in though the front brick wall of a house, 'climbed' the back wall internally, through the ceiling and first floor, up through that ceiling into the loft continued out though the rafters/tiles back into the air - now going mostly vertically and finally ran out of energy a bit later.
So I was told it exited out horizontally from the engine/casing, out though the canopy/noise protection. continued through the site and through the site fence, crossed a road, in though the front brick wall of a house, 'climbed' the back wall internally, through the ceiling and first floor, up through that ceiling into the loft continued out though the rafters/tiles back into the air - now going mostly vertically and finally ran out of energy a bit later.
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And then there was the incident in the IOM where someone put jet A into the water meth booster on a turboprop.
There was bits hitting the terminal 2km away when it kicked in and both engines exploded.
There was bits hitting the terminal 2km away when it kicked in and both engines exploded.