Tailwheel rating for a Turbulent
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Tailwheel rating for a Turbulent
To my mixed delight and alarm, I have just bought my first aircraft: a Druine Turbulent. However, I don't know how to fly it. I've probably got about 80-90 hours on spamcans (trained on Tommies) with an hour on an Eurostar (trigear) and 40 minutes of aerobatics on a Super-Decathlon which I didn't quite land.
I've read suggestions that the best aircraft to do a tailwheel conversion on in order to transition to the Turbulent would be a Thruster, which is unfortunately a microlight. On the other hand as I understand it there's no fixed number of hours to do a tailwheel rating, would it be possible to do most of the training on a thruster then get signed of on a group A aircraft?
Does anybody have any suggestions for good flying schools? I'm based in Mid Wales and will have to travel - so within reason it doesn't make much difference how far.
I've read suggestions that the best aircraft to do a tailwheel conversion on in order to transition to the Turbulent would be a Thruster, which is unfortunately a microlight. On the other hand as I understand it there's no fixed number of hours to do a tailwheel rating, would it be possible to do most of the training on a thruster then get signed of on a group A aircraft?
Does anybody have any suggestions for good flying schools? I'm based in Mid Wales and will have to travel - so within reason it doesn't make much difference how far.
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Hi, and congrats on entering the world of aircraft ownership. I fly an LAA administered tail dragger also and its the only way to arrive.
I've flown a tailwheel Thruster and its just too easy, you simply don't need any instruction to be safe in one of those. I would suggest getting a few hours in something that actually requires a bit of learning. A Citabria is probably a good idea, but a Cub or similar is probably just as good. I did my NPPL SSEA rating on a Cub in order to get signed off on tailwheels at the same time. Do get instruction on landing on hard runways if its available.
Another way of doing it might be to get an hour or two in a Cub, and then get a sympathetic LAA coach to take you through the rest of it with extensive taxiing and 'supervised solo' flight in your Turbulent. It would save you a good deal of money and provided you're not ham-fisted you'll probably be alright.
I've flown a tailwheel Thruster and its just too easy, you simply don't need any instruction to be safe in one of those. I would suggest getting a few hours in something that actually requires a bit of learning. A Citabria is probably a good idea, but a Cub or similar is probably just as good. I did my NPPL SSEA rating on a Cub in order to get signed off on tailwheels at the same time. Do get instruction on landing on hard runways if its available.
Another way of doing it might be to get an hour or two in a Cub, and then get a sympathetic LAA coach to take you through the rest of it with extensive taxiing and 'supervised solo' flight in your Turbulent. It would save you a good deal of money and provided you're not ham-fisted you'll probably be alright.
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Citab's pretty easy, too. You can even see where you're going when taxying, as it's quite nose-low for a tail dragger.
Cub or Chippy, I'd suggest. Preferably a J3 / L4 rather than Super Cub as they are flown from the back seat and are therefore more demanding to handle on the ground. Also the lightweight 'little' Cub is 'closer' to a Turb.
Cub or Chippy, I'd suggest. Preferably a J3 / L4 rather than Super Cub as they are flown from the back seat and are therefore more demanding to handle on the ground. Also the lightweight 'little' Cub is 'closer' to a Turb.
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Why not cut to the chase and hire a TW instructor to give you some dual in your own machine? that's what I did when the Maule arrived in Scotland, went down to Perth and done a few hours with Heather Hayes and was good to go, no faffing around on another type. To be honest the TW thing is sometimes made out to be a big deal, it ain't, its a far more natural and easier config to handle for TO, landing and taxiing, just got to watch out for the ground loops.
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That would be very cosy in a Turbulent
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Tailwheel
Bob Pooler at Sleap in the Aviat Husky is probably your closest and best bet for the principles.
Then on to the Tiger Club @ Headcorn for a checkout to fly a Turb. Locals will be along to advise on the latest state of play with the Tiger Club & Turb availability.
Enjoy your new toy.
Then on to the Tiger Club @ Headcorn for a checkout to fly a Turb. Locals will be along to advise on the latest state of play with the Tiger Club & Turb availability.
Enjoy your new toy.
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piperboy84
then again I suppose it would depend on who the instructor was
then again I suppose it would depend on who the instructor was
Is he still flying around up there ?
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You won't go far wrong with Bob Pooler - great guy who is 100% professional who I'm sure will make it fun as well (never flown with him but I know Bob well from operating into his strip over many years).
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An hour flight training at the tiger club will also include an hours briefing and chats with others and free coffee at a friendly club.
Being as they run the turbulent team the ground school flying and tips would be priceless.A course with them would be a good consideration.
Being as they run the turbulent team the ground school flying and tips would be priceless.A course with them would be a good consideration.
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Tailwheel training
Hi abgd,
Tailwheel is not something you can learn with a quick hour in a Cub and there is a surprising amount of poor tail-wheel training on offer. So definitely read 'The Compleat Taildragger Pilot' by Plourde as this may be the only means by which you will know in what respect your tailwheel training might have been lacking.
My greatest area of concern is that many flying schools/flying clubs nowadays just don't teach wheeler landings. You might well need this skill to pull off a cross wind landing in a strong cross wind. (I hear some places don't even teach cross wind landing at all, which is disgraceful)!
For landing cross wind, most will teach you to do a two-point landing instead. This is where you stall the aircraft on with your into-wind wing down, putting down your into-wind main wheel and tail wheel first. This is O.K. for a mild to moderate crosswind in a forgiving high wing aircraft, but if you have to land a low wing monoplane or bi-plane with a strong crosswind, then in my view two-pointing could be hazardous.
There are also two methods of landing approach, the 'crabbing in' method and the 'wing down' method. You need to know both methods of landing approach and should be able to do both and be ready to use either method, according to the characteristics of the aeroplane and the conditions prevailing.
The wheeler landing is where you allow the main wheels to brush the runway while you still have flying speed. You then move the control column forward to remove any positive angle of attack causing the aeroplane to roll along the runway on her main wheels while keeping her tail up with the elevators.
You allow the speed to fall off while holding the tail up and the aeroplane straight and as close as possible to the centre line of the runway. As the speed falls off, you will find yourself moving the control column further and further forward to keep the tail up, while applying more and more into wind aileron and more and more away-from-wind rudder to keep her straight. Eventually, you will be unable to hold the tail up any longer and it will sink gently onto the runway and the aeroplane will roll to a halt with the flying controls now very crossed - the stick fully forward with full into wind aileron and full away from wind rudder.
When I returned to flying after a break of several decades I was taught the two point landing, (a method which incidentally I had never even seen before). I asked if I could relearn my accustomed wheeler landing, and received no clear reply. So I did as I was told and used the method I had now been taught. A few weeks later, I had my very first ever groundloop!
I am not saying the sole cause of the groundloop was 'two pointing' the aeroplane, as other factors were at work on that occasion also, not least of which being hit by a gust of wind funnelled between two nearby hangars, but I certainly believe the two point landing method contributed to the development of the ground-loop by removing some of the rudder authority, as with the tail down part of the fin would have been masked by the forward fuselage because the aircraft was now in a landing attitude.
I believe that if that gust had caught me during a wheeler landing, while my nose was still level it would have been that much quicker, after getting full power back on, to accelerate to flying speed, and do a go-round.
I have the impression that many present day instructors, (both ex-military and civil trained) lack the ability to teach the wheeler landing, perhaps being afraid to teach people to brush the ground with their mains and push the stick forward, while still having flying speed during the resulting ground roll, for fear of grounding the prop.
Whoever you go to, make sure you are trained properly. You need to come away feeling confident about landing cross wind using a wheeler landing. You need to ask before commencing training whether the wheeler will be part of your training.
Good luck.
BP.
Tailwheel is not something you can learn with a quick hour in a Cub and there is a surprising amount of poor tail-wheel training on offer. So definitely read 'The Compleat Taildragger Pilot' by Plourde as this may be the only means by which you will know in what respect your tailwheel training might have been lacking.
My greatest area of concern is that many flying schools/flying clubs nowadays just don't teach wheeler landings. You might well need this skill to pull off a cross wind landing in a strong cross wind. (I hear some places don't even teach cross wind landing at all, which is disgraceful)!
For landing cross wind, most will teach you to do a two-point landing instead. This is where you stall the aircraft on with your into-wind wing down, putting down your into-wind main wheel and tail wheel first. This is O.K. for a mild to moderate crosswind in a forgiving high wing aircraft, but if you have to land a low wing monoplane or bi-plane with a strong crosswind, then in my view two-pointing could be hazardous.
There are also two methods of landing approach, the 'crabbing in' method and the 'wing down' method. You need to know both methods of landing approach and should be able to do both and be ready to use either method, according to the characteristics of the aeroplane and the conditions prevailing.
The wheeler landing is where you allow the main wheels to brush the runway while you still have flying speed. You then move the control column forward to remove any positive angle of attack causing the aeroplane to roll along the runway on her main wheels while keeping her tail up with the elevators.
You allow the speed to fall off while holding the tail up and the aeroplane straight and as close as possible to the centre line of the runway. As the speed falls off, you will find yourself moving the control column further and further forward to keep the tail up, while applying more and more into wind aileron and more and more away-from-wind rudder to keep her straight. Eventually, you will be unable to hold the tail up any longer and it will sink gently onto the runway and the aeroplane will roll to a halt with the flying controls now very crossed - the stick fully forward with full into wind aileron and full away from wind rudder.
When I returned to flying after a break of several decades I was taught the two point landing, (a method which incidentally I had never even seen before). I asked if I could relearn my accustomed wheeler landing, and received no clear reply. So I did as I was told and used the method I had now been taught. A few weeks later, I had my very first ever groundloop!
I am not saying the sole cause of the groundloop was 'two pointing' the aeroplane, as other factors were at work on that occasion also, not least of which being hit by a gust of wind funnelled between two nearby hangars, but I certainly believe the two point landing method contributed to the development of the ground-loop by removing some of the rudder authority, as with the tail down part of the fin would have been masked by the forward fuselage because the aircraft was now in a landing attitude.
I believe that if that gust had caught me during a wheeler landing, while my nose was still level it would have been that much quicker, after getting full power back on, to accelerate to flying speed, and do a go-round.
I have the impression that many present day instructors, (both ex-military and civil trained) lack the ability to teach the wheeler landing, perhaps being afraid to teach people to brush the ground with their mains and push the stick forward, while still having flying speed during the resulting ground roll, for fear of grounding the prop.
Whoever you go to, make sure you are trained properly. You need to come away feeling confident about landing cross wind using a wheeler landing. You need to ask before commencing training whether the wheeler will be part of your training.
Good luck.
BP.
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There's no danger that Bob Pooler would leave you incompletely trained by omitting wheelers and x-wind landings; he's far too good a pilot and professional an instructor for that. If you're in mid Wales, Sleap is probably as close as anywhere, as well.
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Why not go to The Tiger Club and do a tailwheel course on a Piper Cub, THEN you can fly their Turbulents? They have been operating them for over 50 years, so they will tell you what you need to know.
Oh, and to counter what had been said above, 'wheeler' landings in a Turb are something you only do when you've a bit of time on type, and then only on a VERY smooth runway. If it requires a wheeler landing, its probably too windy to fly anyway.
There's a very good flight test of the Turbulent in the February 1997 issue of Pilot Mag, tells you all you need to know.
CD, (400hr Turb pilot)
Oh, and to counter what had been said above, 'wheeler' landings in a Turb are something you only do when you've a bit of time on type, and then only on a VERY smooth runway. If it requires a wheeler landing, its probably too windy to fly anyway.
There's a very good flight test of the Turbulent in the February 1997 issue of Pilot Mag, tells you all you need to know.
CD, (400hr Turb pilot)
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Did somebody mention Bob Pooler?
BBC News - Star Wars actor Harrison Ford joins Shropshire flight club
You'd be keeping good company abgd!
BBC News - Star Wars actor Harrison Ford joins Shropshire flight club
You'd be keeping good company abgd!
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Very good advice from Broomstick pilot there.
For what it's worth, every landing I do in the Teal is a wheel landing, and since I have started doing them consistantly, I've stopped breaking water rudders (attached to the tailwheel) and my springs are lasting much longer. Let alone the better control, and no bouncing I have during landings.
So competent tailwheel training would be a really good idea....
For what it's worth, every landing I do in the Teal is a wheel landing, and since I have started doing them consistantly, I've stopped breaking water rudders (attached to the tailwheel) and my springs are lasting much longer. Let alone the better control, and no bouncing I have during landings.
So competent tailwheel training would be a really good idea....
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abgd, what are your plans for the aircraft? You planing on flying in the calm of the evening in the local area or hour building in all the conditions the aircraft could handle?
How many hours a year do you expect to do?
Are you based on hard for Grass?
Rod1
How many hours a year do you expect to do?
Are you based on hard for Grass?
Rod1
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Hi Broomstick pilot,If you re read my post i wrote an hours flight training at the Tiger club also includes an hours briefing. I went on to say a course with them would be a good consideration.
I did not say a quick hour on the cub should do the trick!
I did not say a quick hour on the cub should do the trick!