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From LAA to CofA

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From LAA to CofA

Old 14th Oct 2014, 10:05
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From LAA to CofA

Hi All,


First of all, I know there are loads of threads on running costs, maintenance costs etc but I am hoping for some slightly different information out of this one.


I am currently on my third year of owning a permit aircraft. So far it has been a relatively pleasant and pain free experience. Last week I flew a Cessna for the first time since I completed my training and it really brought back my love of a bigger and sturdier aircraft. It really got me thinking that maybe it is time to upgrade to something a bit bigger. My thinking is a 172 which I have about 20 hours on (about 100 hours on a 152) but this was a few years ago.


What I am out of date with is the rules and regulations of owning a CofA aircraft as opposed to permit. Mainly what I am allowed to do myself maintenance wise and the difference in annual costs. I am not worried about storage, fuel and insurance costs, just what I would expect the difference to be in the annual running costs just to keep the plane flying.


At present I do all my own maintenance and a permit renewal is just under £300 per annum.


I was just wondering what I would expect if I went to CofA. Someone mentioned there is a 'private category' where engine overhaul time can be extended and some work can be done by the owner.


Perhaps someone could enlighten me on what I should expect to pay in necessary costs and what I am able to do myself if I purchased a Cessna 172. I would be looking at spending around the £30k maybe upto £40k for my purchase. I realise maintenance costs can be 'how long is a piece of string' but I am just looking for a baseline to judge whether it would be something I could possibly afford.


Many thanks in advance.
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 10:30
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Might come as a shock

You can still pretty much do your own maintenance as long as your MO is happy to sign it off.

When you find your CAMO be sure that they are also happy for you to deal with this. Some CAMOs will only sign off the ARC when they are sure of the quality of work, usually by them or sister organisations

Our annual is usually around £2-3k, though they can be a lot higher than that.

The is an issue with Cessnas at the moment with the 'elderly aircraft inspection' that is starting to take some of them out. So if you do go down the Cessna route, get it well checked before committing.
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 11:09
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My EASA aircraft is at the bottom end of the scale and the annual is usually between £2-3K but I have had bills over £6K.
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 12:06
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If you work on an average over 5 years of £5k PA for maintenance you will not go far wrong. If you find a maintenance shop which will let you do the work you will save but there are not many about. Remember that 8.33 is coming and you can fit a radio under LAA for around £1200 - it could be more than twice that on C of A.

Rod1
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 20:20
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Yes Rod1

As the OP said, he was looking at moving away from Permit to a "a bigger and sturdier aircraft"

There are definite benefits to remaining on Permit, but until the LAA take on the heavier end of the fleet then some of us need to stay on CofA
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 21:42
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Not sure you would want to go to much beyond an RV10 - given the permit limit is 4 seats. Problem is not that the LAA do not do the weight, it is the cost of purchase (of the Rv10) that is too high v a 172. This will sort its self out in time. Quite a few others of similar weight to a 172 though.

Rv10 2700 lbs (LAA) 4 seat

Rv 14 2050 lbs (LAA) 2 seat

Jodel 140 2646 lbs (LAA) 4 seat

Auster AOP9 2330 lb (LAA) 3 seat

Bulldog 2350lb (LAA) 2 seat

172N 2300 lbs

PA28 (200hp) Arrow 2650 lbs

Rod1

Last edited by Rod1; 15th Oct 2014 at 08:42.
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 10:55
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I have really enjoyed my permit aircraft over the time I have had it and would consider another one that is bigger with a larger useable load. As was said, these tend to be very expensive although much cheaper running costs.


I mentioned the 172 purely because I have a fair bit of experience with Cessna aircraft and the purchase costs can be reasonable even for a very good one. If I was sure that an average annual was only going to be £2k-£3k then I would jump at the chance but my issue is the worry that the bill could be substantially more than that. With my permit aircraft I cannot really get any surprise bills that make me worry because if something drastic goes wrong, there isn't much that I cannot either fix my self or get parts for a lot of it from my local high street automotive shop.


About the most expensive bill I could get for my aircraft would be if the engine went beyond repair and even then I can get a nearly new one for £6k. I have just had my engine overhauled and upgraded and the total cost was under £2k.


My aircraft actually goes faster than a Cessna 172 and uses around 14l/h and has a climb rate substantially better than a Cessna. But even with all of that I still feel that the Cessna has a better and more solid feel with a greater carrying capability. I just wished these were available on permit.


I decided long ago that I didn't want to do this as a syndicate as I like to make my own decisions about the aircraft and know how it has been flown so if I did go Cessna or the like, it would be as a sole owner. Hence the concern over surprise bills.
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 12:17
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Basically, and it is down to you, but if you can't afford to put in £8-10k, then stick with Permit, or join a syndicate. Putting a new engine on a CofA aircraft will be at least £10-15k.

I'm afraid that comes from operating bigger and sturdier aircraft. So are the bills
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 12:44
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Not sure what you have now, but something like a Jodel DR1050 offers similar performance to a 172 and would cost you around £23k. Two people full fuel and 150lb of bags, or 3 people and some fuel.

Not sure why the LAA are getting comments regarding aircraft not being sturdy. There are lots of aerobatic aircraft on permits that are much stronger than the average spam can. Compare a Bulldog and a 172 and see which will fold first.

Rod1
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 14:44
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But not many are as stable load carriers as a C172
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 15:12
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Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any permit aircraft. I would not have owned one if I did. But permit aircraft tend to be light and low weight. When I flew the Cessna it was a heavier aircraft that had a very stable and strong feel to it. I guess I also have a soft spot for the Cessna as it got me through my PPL and further training after that. Then I moved to a permit aircraft due to affordability. I also cross converted to the Piper Warrior and although it was a very nice aircraft, I never got the same feeling with it and found the single access door inconvenient. High wing I seem to prefer.


I mainly fly with my family for pure fun and sightseeing so I don't really have any interest in aeros or IMC come to that, although IMC would be a nice option as it is something I have always thought about just for the extra training.


There are bigger and heavier permit aircrafts but they tend to have quite a price tag attached to them. Plus in 4 seats, there are very few options for permit aircraft.
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 16:00
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Then what about a nice Cessna 195

Platinum Fighter Sales | Warbird and Classic Aircraft For Sale
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Old 15th Oct 2014, 16:53
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There are bigger and heavier permit aircrafts but they tend to have quite a price tag attached to them.
The price tag, as eni fule kno, is just the start. !
There are plenty of eye-watering examples ,in posts here and on "the other Forum" , where horrendous costs are forced on the owner.....don't like it? tough cheese! no release unless you pay the "ransom fee"

Permit costs are a fraction of Cert. costs.

Regarding "doing your own work".......Ever tried asking the local garage if you can use their workshop to maintain your car?....yes! it's been tried , multiple times....everything from a communally owned workshop, to weekend/evening use of a main stealer's, with a professional mechanic on duty,to assist if you run out of skill or aptitude or time!....workshop HAD to be clear for normal business.
Hire-costs worked out about half their normal chargeout- rates.

Now, translate to your local aircraft maintainer. A pal of mine was a pilot(PPL) mechanic and auto-electrician. he had use of a Permit A/C and a 172 and 152...much maintenance was done by him and signed -off by the resident engineer....he also repaired starters, dynamos and Alternators, for the engineers' customers........The thing being, he'd built a relationship with that "ticket -holder" who'd grown to know and trust his expertise and workmanship. Ultimately, the Engineer was responsible, he'd literally put his career in my mate's hands.....
For you, that would be a HUGE ask, I'd expect you to pay accordingly, so, I don't think you would get to anywhere near double the cost of running a Permit aircraft.....
INSURANCE!!! CHECK! I'd expect, with the huge cost of Cof A repairs, that would be another big hole in the budget.

If you can afford it and don't resent the huge extra cost, it's a no-brainer....get your 172, MAKE SURE THE SIDS HAVE BEEN COMPLIED WITH ...hedge your bets with a Rheims, which were corrosion-proofed ,new ,at the factory...... fly it and remember to hand over a blank cheque every time it wants fettling.

(maybe you hate maintaining your own, but I get the impression this is an important part of your flying fun)
look at 4-seat permit stuff!
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 08:53
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Thank you for all your advice. As I said at the start, I was out of date with CofA stuff as I had exclusively dealt with permit over the past 2-3 years. I guess I was kind of hoping that things had changed a bit and the rules relaxed somewhat but I guess nothing has changed.


For me, I certainly could not take the risks on the sort of costs I am hearing. On another forum, £700 to supply and change a seat belt. On permit, about £40 for a very high quality seatbelt and 3 nuts and bolts to undo and do up and 15 minutes of my time and a descriptive entry on the logbook with receipts.


Surely there is going to come a time when some of the older aircraft (that are quite serviceable) are going to be cost prohibitive to own even for a group in some circumstances. The CAA should really start thinking about a category for the purely leisure flyer that just really want's to potter around in a well built, old but very serviceable aircraft. It seems to be an all or nothing situation at the moment for CofA.


I would quite happily own a C172 without being able to fly night or IMC. Only flying it in excellent weather conditions and keep it serviced to probably a higher standard than I am required to at present. I have just overhauled the engine on my own aircraft. It didn't really need it and was well within the manufacturers specifications but I had 2 compressions that were lower than the others and I wanted to bring the engine up to the latest specification. Again, I had no legal requirement to do this. This would have been a no go in a CofA aircraft unless I had excess cash that I didn't know what to do with.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 10:08
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What you describe has happened with Austers, Jodels and Bulldogs, (now mostly on LAA permits) all of which are in your price band and your approximate weight equivalence?

Rod1
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 11:12
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On another forum, £700 to supply and change a seat belt. On permit, about £40 for a very high quality seatbelt
That'll be the "mandatory" chucking -away of complete Cessna belts because they were "time expired" even though they lived in a hangar within a covered cockpit (so, no UV degradation) and even though some firms were perfectly capable of re-webbing the (sometimes totally unused) fittings, they weren't allowed to....yup! It's all here on PpRune, if you care to search........the good news.....
THAT'S HISTORY....An outbreak of commonsense has prevailed, but only after a lot of poor sods wasted several thousand pounds each, because of some over-zealous stick-waving jobsworth.
I read there is a sea-change in the CAA and carefully-built little empires are being scrutinised and dismantled or rebuilt....
Mr. Cynic, here, says it's probably due to the tentacles of EASA getting an ever -firmer grip and CAA have finally grasped that they need to fight that beaurocracy instead of biting off the hand that feeds them.
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Old 19th Oct 2014, 17:00
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Steevo25

Unless you're as rich as Croesus - don't do it. Even then don't do it.
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