So when does it all click?
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Thank you M-J. It's a bit off putting to read such things about a supposedly benign training aircraft. What would have happened to a student solo?
Don't student spin accidents usually involve screwing up the turn from base to final? So it hardly matters what sort of spin it is, or which recovery method works, as there isn't the height to recover? Quote:
I seem to remember that a number of "accidents" occurred very shortly after qualifying by pilots spearing in to their parents/girlfriends house. I can recall circling over mine with my daughter on board, first pax, & pulling considerable unexpected G as I straightened up from the turn.
Thank you M-J. It's a bit off putting to read such things about a supposedly benign training aircraft. What would have happened to a student solo?
Don't student spin accidents usually involve screwing up the turn from base to final? So it hardly matters what sort of spin it is, or which recovery method works, as there isn't the height to recover? Quote:
I seem to remember that a number of "accidents" occurred very shortly after qualifying by pilots spearing in to their parents/girlfriends house. I can recall circling over mine with my daughter on board, first pax, & pulling considerable unexpected G as I straightened up from the turn.
The scenaro Crash 1 descrbes is not uncommon as well, and in both cases the moral is clear - know what the approach to the stall looks like, and stay well aware from it close to the ground unless you're trying to land.
G
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I was shown high rotational spinning in the bulldog by the cfi (ex hunter pilot) you let the stick drift forward once the spin has started (rather like competition aero's in a mono) you are falling out of the sky about 18,000ft per minute. recovery is noticeably longer and you need every bit of your 10,000 start height.
Last edited by Camargue; 13th Oct 2014 at 17:41.
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Never mind a solo student, I don't think in the heat of the moment i would have thought about putting the power up to give more flow over the rudder. Thats was with a cpl and ir pass under my belt.
But I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the attitude the instructor did and I wouldn't have waggled the controls the way he did either.
Chances of a solo student doing it in my opinion is nil. They won't have the balls to get the plane into the required attitude.
I haven't either since.
But I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the attitude the instructor did and I wouldn't have waggled the controls the way he did either.
Chances of a solo student doing it in my opinion is nil. They won't have the balls to get the plane into the required attitude.
I haven't either since.
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falling out of the sky about 18,000ft per minute
I did 9200 FPM down for a few seconds in the Caravan, and I thought that was really something!
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18,000 was a figure I remember being quoted for high rotational and 11,000 for standard.
to be honest I've never stopped to workout if this was true or not - 205mph in a stalled a/c with lots of drag does seem fast - but you are very nose low with little oscillation.
a standard 3 turn spin/recovery took around 2500ft, high rotational took about 4000 iirc (was about 25 years ago! and I could be talking total bs! - Beagle might know, he used to fly them)
to be honest I've never stopped to workout if this was true or not - 205mph in a stalled a/c with lots of drag does seem fast - but you are very nose low with little oscillation.
a standard 3 turn spin/recovery took around 2500ft, high rotational took about 4000 iirc (was about 25 years ago! and I could be talking total bs! - Beagle might know, he used to fly them)
Last edited by Camargue; 13th Oct 2014 at 17:42.
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This is where flying gliders comes into it's own. Every year you have to do your spin checks and you can spin to your hearts content in between too, although scrubbing height for no good reason is anathema to most glider pilots. Glider pilots spend most of their time very near the stall at high angles of bank; usually pulling in and out of buffet. Consequently I've never feared spins in a powered aircraft. Not to say that I fly willy nilly, I've never been near a spin unintentionally. Probably because I know how easy it is to finish up in one.
Oops forgot the OP's question. I've no idea whether it's clicked or not. I just fly around. Haven't died yet.
Oops forgot the OP's question. I've no idea whether it's clicked or not. I just fly around. Haven't died yet.
Last edited by thing; 14th Oct 2014 at 22:45.
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But I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the attitude the instructor did and I wouldn't have waggled the controls the way he did either. Quote:
First time I circled the house, 45deg bank, wife came out to wave & I waved back by waggling. How close was I ?
First time I circled the house, 45deg bank, wife came out to wave & I waved back by waggling. How close was I ?
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I waved back by waggling. How close was I ?
The design requirements for certification require that it not be possible for a single engined aircraft to be able to get into an unrecoverable spin, with any use of the controls - but it might take a while to get out, and you could stretch some airplane depending how abusive you are going in.
In some cases, "any use of the controls" included throttle as a control (which in this case I vigorously opposed), but I was overruled and still required to demonstrate 75% power spins in a 210HP Lake Amphibian. It worked, but I'm never doing that again! It did show me though, how a pilot could power themselves into a departure spin (and a climbing turn over/around the trees at the end of a short lake is just the occasion for it to happen). That plane was on its back so fast, it did make my head spin!
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crash one,
stall speed in a turn is the square root of the load factor plus s/l clean stalling speed
ie
45 aob is about 1.37g iirc? so multiply sq root of this - 1.17 by your s/l clean stalling speed to get the stall speed in a 45 turn (this assumes you are applying load)
if you waggle whilst applying load and reach 60 aob your stall speed will increase by a factor of 1.41, abt 80 aob its 2.4 (assuming you maintain load)
stall speed in a turn is the square root of the load factor plus s/l clean stalling speed
ie
45 aob is about 1.37g iirc? so multiply sq root of this - 1.17 by your s/l clean stalling speed to get the stall speed in a 45 turn (this assumes you are applying load)
if you waggle whilst applying load and reach 60 aob your stall speed will increase by a factor of 1.41, abt 80 aob its 2.4 (assuming you maintain load)
Last edited by Camargue; 15th Oct 2014 at 12:38.
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Errrm, there is NO SUCH THING AS STALL SPEED! Only stall angle (of attack). Fly aeros, and you'll soon see there's often little relationship with the stall and what the ASI is reading.
And that doesn't just apply in aeros - after all, the aeroplane has no idea it is doing aeros!
And that doesn't just apply in aeros - after all, the aeroplane has no idea it is doing aeros!
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Going back to the original post for a moment.
"When does it all click?"
You say that you're having to focus on thinking about everything all the time (my words, not yours). That's a good thing.
The best advice I ever heard, I got on the day I passed my PPL, from a retired airline captain. He said "Congratulations! Now you have a license to kill yourself."
It took me a minute to realise what he'd said, because everyone was congratulating me. But when I asked him what he meant, he said something to the effect of:
When you get your license or any additional ratings or certificates, you're at your peak of knowledge and ability, after that you slowly start to degrade in your knowledge and ability. Many pilots can't pass the PPL exam a year after passing it. You need to continue training, on a regular basis, and continue learning, in order to maintain a level of knowledge and ability that is close to where you are now. If you don't continue to train and learn, your skills will degrade until one day, when you think you're as good as you are now, but you're not, and you'll do something that you could do now, but can't do then, and you will die. I only hope you don't take someone else with you.
But, if you continue to train, learn, study, work hard on thinking while your in the plane, never get complacent, work on your skills, you can fly for a long long time and never have an incident.
--
Through the years I've seen young pilots who think they've "got it" who then get complacent, and their skills do deteriorate.
My advice to you, is this, the minute you think you've "got it" and know what you're doing, go and get some training and make sure you do "have it". I bet you'll find that there are some simple little things that you've forgotten, or have stopped doing.
Keep flying, enjoy it, but keep working hard in the cockpit, keep thinking ahead of the plane. Eventually you'll be thinking further ahead than you are now, but never accept your performance as "good enough". There's always room for improvement.
"When does it all click?"
You say that you're having to focus on thinking about everything all the time (my words, not yours). That's a good thing.
The best advice I ever heard, I got on the day I passed my PPL, from a retired airline captain. He said "Congratulations! Now you have a license to kill yourself."
It took me a minute to realise what he'd said, because everyone was congratulating me. But when I asked him what he meant, he said something to the effect of:
When you get your license or any additional ratings or certificates, you're at your peak of knowledge and ability, after that you slowly start to degrade in your knowledge and ability. Many pilots can't pass the PPL exam a year after passing it. You need to continue training, on a regular basis, and continue learning, in order to maintain a level of knowledge and ability that is close to where you are now. If you don't continue to train and learn, your skills will degrade until one day, when you think you're as good as you are now, but you're not, and you'll do something that you could do now, but can't do then, and you will die. I only hope you don't take someone else with you.
But, if you continue to train, learn, study, work hard on thinking while your in the plane, never get complacent, work on your skills, you can fly for a long long time and never have an incident.
--
Through the years I've seen young pilots who think they've "got it" who then get complacent, and their skills do deteriorate.
My advice to you, is this, the minute you think you've "got it" and know what you're doing, go and get some training and make sure you do "have it". I bet you'll find that there are some simple little things that you've forgotten, or have stopped doing.
Keep flying, enjoy it, but keep working hard in the cockpit, keep thinking ahead of the plane. Eventually you'll be thinking further ahead than you are now, but never accept your performance as "good enough". There's always room for improvement.
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A part of it all clicking is knowing that a wing stalls at an AoA, and that is influenced by airspeed and loading. At any given airpseed, the wing can be instantly unstalled (or prevented from stalling) by pitching down. This must be instinct - and is an important "click".
I used to entertain myself, flying my 150 under control (and wagging the wings) at indicated airspeeds of less than 20 MPH. But these events were brief, because they were flown at less than 1G.
I used to entertain myself, flying my 150 under control (and wagging the wings) at indicated airspeeds of less than 20 MPH. But these events were brief, because they were flown at less than 1G.
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stall angle of attack will equate to a speed which as about xxx higher than the stall angle
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ok,ok,ok
stall angle of attack will equate to a speed....
stall angle of attack will equate to a speed....
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what I meant was that if a ppl is taught critical angle occurs at an air speed of about 55kts he can know that in a 60 aob turn at 2g stall speed will be about 80kts
He doesn't really need to know that the critical angle, there are no visual cues and stalls under g will be sharper so less warning from the airframe.
In this instance best to know not get to close to 80kt, unless he wants to do max rate/min radius turn and hold it on the buffet.
sure shaggy but in GA weight variation is generally so small it makes bugger all difference, so as far as I can see speed is a useful reference point as long as you accept its not definitive.
He doesn't really need to know that the critical angle, there are no visual cues and stalls under g will be sharper so less warning from the airframe.
In this instance best to know not get to close to 80kt, unless he wants to do max rate/min radius turn and hold it on the buffet.
sure shaggy but in GA weight variation is generally so small it makes bugger all difference, so as far as I can see speed is a useful reference point as long as you accept its not definitive.
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I wondered how long it would take before the mere mention of the word stall & speed on the same day would trigger the time honoured response of screaming ANGLE OF ATTACK.
Even in spite of "straight & level" being added.
Why for Christs sake can't we agree that to discuss stalling first of all WE KNOW THERE iS NO SUCH THING AS STALL BLOODY SPEED, ONLY ANGLE OF ATTACK.
Even in spite of "straight & level" being added.
Why for Christs sake can't we agree that to discuss stalling first of all WE KNOW THERE iS NO SUCH THING AS STALL BLOODY SPEED, ONLY ANGLE OF ATTACK.
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Yes, angle of attack is the definitive way to determine the point at which a wing's stalls. Fine, I have no dispute with that. So, with no AofA indicator in my li'l 3-axes (plural of axis for those about to get into a spelling and grammar drift) microlight, how do those pundits of the AofA tell me when I am getting close to the stall? I'll tell you - it's called an ASI and it works extremely well!
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Threads might run a bit longer on subject if they weren't diverted by having to explain every word as if we are all dumb assed & stupid. I would love a pound for every time we get boringly reminded of the bleeding obvious.
Just for the record by the way. When I "waggled" the wings at a bank angle of 45deg, I did, an instant before, push the nose down a bit just to make sure I had enough SPEED to avoid the stall. Whilst I was doing all this I was aware that my altitude was at least 800 ft above the ground, as I had previously noted that my house sits on ground at an elevation is 350 ft. I was also aware of my fuel state.
Just in case someone would like to enquire, anything else, please ask!
Just for the record by the way. When I "waggled" the wings at a bank angle of 45deg, I did, an instant before, push the nose down a bit just to make sure I had enough SPEED to avoid the stall. Whilst I was doing all this I was aware that my altitude was at least 800 ft above the ground, as I had previously noted that my house sits on ground at an elevation is 350 ft. I was also aware of my fuel state.
Just in case someone would like to enquire, anything else, please ask!