Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Aircraft Owner Operating Costs?

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Aircraft Owner Operating Costs?

Old 8th Aug 2014, 14:51
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LAA permits can be bought in many different price categories.

What would be your recommendation then for a budget of 20k/40k/60k euro?
Pirke is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 14:55
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"What would be your recommendation then for a budget of 20k/40k/60k euro? "

That is a very hard question because I for one have no idea which aircraft are approved in your area.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 16:35
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Silvaire1

With respect, you've misunderstood the debate. It isn't a question of 'Yah boo' mine's bigger than yours or, words to that effect, it is about COST.

Those of us who fly Permit have all, for the most part, also flown certified a/c. Because we've paid the bills, we all understand and appreciate the quite staggering cost divide.

I'm familiar with the cost of flying in certified a/c be it a group share or club hire. I know that many who go this route struggle to fly sufficient hours as to maintain a satisfactory and SAFE degree of currency.

And that really is the nub of the argument. I do not claim that my present a/c will outperform the club Archer I used to hire or the T67 Slingsby group a/c of former acquaintance. What it will do, which is of major importance, is keep my a/c handling skills sharp and on the ball because I fly more cheaply and therefore more often.

I'm quietly amazed and at a loss to explain why it is that more pilot/owners don't go down the Permit route. One explanation could be that many haven't heard of Permit a/c and, when they do, assume it is some esoteric and arcane aspect of GA that requires special aptitudes.


Pirke

If you PM your postal address, I'll mail you a couple of back copies of the LAA magazine. The back pages feature classified ads which will add to your information.
Capt Kremmen is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 19:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PM sent, thanks


For me it was very much the unfamiliarity. After getting a PPL on a C152 and C172 those were obvious the first choice. Flying an experimental was not safe, they are not certified. It's all in the name really.
Pirke is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 20:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pirke - Monday I will do some digging and see if I can find out more about the situation in the Netherlands.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 21:22
  #46 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,202
Received 46 Likes on 24 Posts
Originally Posted by Pirke
PM sent, thanks


For me it was very much the unfamiliarity. After getting a PPL on a C152 and C172 those were obvious the first choice. Flying an experimental was not safe, they are not certified. It's all in the name really.
You are missing a lot of far more interesting aeroplanes.

Look at the UK and Germany primarily if you are that concerned - both have robust "sub-ICAO" airworthiness systems for microlights and homebuilts. Not called experimental.

If in your country there is a type that is approved in the UK or Germany, and you can reasonably verify that it's in a similar build standard to those countries, you can be pretty comfortable.

BUT, it won't necessarily fly like a C172 (that's generally regarded as a Good Thing), so to keep it safe, get some instruction on it from an instructor who properly understands the aeroplane.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 22:47
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CK, I was having a bit of a laugh, and in a sense getting the debate going. Obviously it succeeded.

Look, horses for courses. I have the luxury of being able to fly an L4 Cub, permit, my Bonanza, on N reg, because frankly, no one in CAA land could maintain it properly, and I fly a number of other mixed types, between permit and CofA.

The OP questioned ownership costs, and the old, how long is a piece of string, comes in. The mission question, is a correct question, because, I missed LAA permit type flying, when I flew larger, more complex types. Hence, my Cub flying, getting back to strip flying, and bimbling about. Any type of flying has to be good, and if the individual gets out of it, what his current requirement is, then great. If it costs 2 bob an hour, super, if it costs 500.00 quid an hour, then so be it.

My Bonanza makes no sense financially. I realize that. But so what. I love it. If it were to go tomorrow, and I was left flying the Cub, great. I have saved myself some dough, but I would miss flying it.

Getting into flying has to be budget led, but some great flying can be had, whether LAA, or Cof A.

Anyway, I lost my hair years ago, so the LAA types would be of no use to me....
maxred is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2014, 22:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, I almost bought a used Diamond DA20 before I really started thinking about permit aircraft as well, but it turned out to need too much maintenance directly after purchasing, so it got above my budget and the deal was off. And currently I'm renting a SportStar RTC, which is also fun to fly.

For a purchase I like the running cost perspective of a Rotax 912. These planes have a good enough performance for me, and I can rent a 4 seater when necessary. When I took lessons in a C172 it was fun to take my wife along when going on an international navigation flight, but now i don't need the 3rd seat for that anymore And in the meantime I've come to prefer the low wing planes for their visibility in a turn. I do find it more of a hassle to climb in/out of, but as my wife put it nicely: "what do you do more often: climb in/out of it, or make turns with it?" Gotta love such a woman!

So currently I'm open for any tri-gear bubble canopy low wing 2 seater with a 912 up front and a stick between my legs, and there are many aircraft that fit this description. And the cheaper to buy, the better. Why spend 60k euro if 30k also brings me pleasure in the air? I don't need a glass cockpit, I can buy a tablet for the ease of navigation. All steam gauges is fine. I do want a 8.33 radio and mode S transponder, and a roomy cockpit with good useful load in the 250kg area. I don't need 130kts, 90 will do fine for me. Anything more than this package would simply be a bonus.

But it seems like I'm hijacking this thread, although it is kind off on topic for this being a cost of ownership thread. Value for money is usually something these topic starters want, and so do I
Pirke is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2014, 01:38
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
My Bonanza makes no sense financially. I realize that. But so what. I love it. If it were to go tomorrow, and I was left flying the Cub, great.
I feel the same way about my planes, and actually both of mine are relatively cheap to own because N-registration means I could select them with an eye towards their intrinsic practicality and costs, not artificially warped costs. Ridiculous over regulation of certified types is the thing that largely creates the 'cost divide' between planes in different EU/UK regulatory categories. The debate between 'C of A' and 'Permit' types is artificial and divisive, inflicted on people by ineffective and self serving government without benefit to anybody in the real world. That is the source of the costs and unfortunate debate, not the planes themselves, or their economics.

PS Both my planes combined cost €42K and both annuals combined cost a few hundred € at today's exchange rate.

Last edited by Silvaire1; 9th Aug 2014 at 02:21. Reason: Added PS
Silvaire1 is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2014, 07:49
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't fly anything cheap....
My daily ride uses about £600 an hour in fuel. But it's big and quick.....
S-Works is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2014, 09:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ridiculous over regulation of certified types is the thing that largely creates the 'cost divide' between planes in different EU/UK regulatory categories. The debate between 'C of A' and 'Permit' types is artificial and divisive, inflicted on people by ineffective and self serving government without benefit to anybody in the real world. That is the source of the costs and unfortunate debate, not the planes themselves, or their economics.
Couldn't put it better

I've owned Permit types and currently flying CoA types.

Yes there is a cost differential, sometimes a big one. But that is factored into my decision to stay with my current steeds.

I do find the statements from proponents of the LAA route a bit one-sided.

If you want to build one of the new breed of Permit aircraft and, like Rod1, are able and willing to do it, and base yourself on a farm strip where hangarage costs pence, then fine.

Only some of the Permit fleet will be able to fly Night or IFR - certainly not all, and you can bet it will not be the lower-end.

The most important thing is not whether the type is Permit or not. It's whether it is right for you and the only way you can tell that is to fly lots of different aircraft before committing to a purchase

The OP made a reasonable request. He's into hours building and, I guess, that is his focus.

My suggestion is not to buy. Get a share in an IFR-equipped C172 or PA28 and all options are covered. Buying outright just bleeds money, whether it is on CofA or Permit.
robin is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2014, 09:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saigon SGN/VVTS
Posts: 6,625
Received 58 Likes on 42 Posts
But it seems like I'm hijacking this thread,
Pirke,

Don't worry about that. Some of the best PPRuNe threads often drift from the original post.

I like threads like this, particularly since I will be retiring next year and buying an aircraft.

I'm having trouble with making a decision and threads like this help me consider my options, which range from a share in a Tecnam on the one hand to a share in a Stearman on the other.
India Four Two is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.