9-10K for a PPL??..

[slipnpitch]

Hi,

I am new to Pprune. I recently had a trial flight at a reputable Flying School based in the North West. The instructor was very pleasant and thorough. I left the school impressed with some information and prices RE PPL training which I have been saving for, for a long time.

I phoned back yesterday to ask a few questions such as their 'package price' which is just under 7k as I wanted to know what that included and also if I pledged to train only midweek would the school consider offering a discount as I would not set foot there at weekends which I believe are their busier days.

The young chap answering the phone seemed rather irritated that I should ask for more information and detail and sounded and behaved like an obnoxious dweeb. He rubbished my suggestion of training only in the week assuring me that they are crazy busy midweek training airline pilots and that the price is the price. Not even a 'let me speak to someone important and get back to you.' I responded that 'thats funny because when I came the other week on a Friday, the school seemed rather quiet' (there was only one female training all afternoon) to which he snorted and said 'well we have quiet days and busy days'. 'Oh', I said.

Regarding the cost he told me that the average cost of doing a PPL in the UK is between 9 and 10 grand. I said that seemed excessively expensive and most people/pilots I'd spoken to and other flying schools offer that around £6k should be enough to attain a PPL providing you train frequently and have a decent level of aptitude. So, is he correct or just full of BS?

Regardless of whether he is right or wrong I can honestly say he did NOTHING to try and encourage me to return to their flying school. Hardly an asset to the business.

Many thanks for your thoughts.

[Pilot DAR]

Flying tends to be pricy, simply because of the number of people who fairly expect to be paid to get a plane into the air. There are also more variables in piloting, and flying than other similar pursuits. And then you have to consider the step you will take after the PPL, which presumably will be to continue flying.

I suggest that you consider the PPL to be a step along your path to enjoy being in the air, rather than an endpoint, or even a milestone. Having a PPL is nice, but if that is the objective, it can overshadow your enjoyment and learning during flying - sort of like the kid who keeps asking "are we there yet?" to the exclusion of simply looking at the beautiful scenery on the trip.

Consider an approach of: "I have a budget of XX a month, for the next umpteen years". If it is enough, go flying. At some point, with dedication, you'll have a PPL, and the only difference you'll notice will be that you can then take passengers to share your passion. Otherwise, you're still out flying!

That said, you have every right to expect to be politely treated by any service provider, so don't settle for a lack of courtesy!

[Whopity]

Regarding the cost he told me that the average cost of doing a PPL in the UK is between 9 and 10 grand. --- So, is he correct or just full of BS?

You can do the sums for yourself, Take the cost per hour including instructor and multiply by 45, that will be the absolute minimum cost. Now add in the cost of exams, landings, flight tests and the big variable, how many hours will you take? The average is between 55/60 not 45 so you need to budget for 33% over your baseline. Whilst it may be possible to do it for £6-7K (No school can guarantee you do it for a set price) then the average is probably between £9-10K

If a school offers you a discount, its probably because they need your money now to pay for someone else's training; who will pay for yours?

[slipnpitch]

Thanks for your thoughts guys I perhaps need to realign my thinking. Some good insights.

[Heston]

And at the risk of being repetitive...


...don't pay up front, however much it looks like a good deal. Because 1) they may go bust, 2) you may decide flying isn't for you, 3) you may wish to change to another school for some reason - and you won't get your money back in any of these situations.


And don't think it can't happen to you - I'm currently training someone who lost several thousand pounds when his previous school went tits up.

[RTN11]

Consider an approach of: "I have a budget of XX a month, for the next umpteen years". If it is enough, go flying. At some point, with dedication, you'll have a PPL, and the only difference you'll notice will be that you can then take passengers to share your passion. Otherwise, you're still out flying!

Absolutely excellent advice. Never seen it quite phrased this way, but it sums it up perfectly.

Far too many people sign up for intensive courses, thinking they can just bash the licence out in a month or so as a milestone and then move on, but in the UK at least it rarely works out. The weather gets in the way, you don't progress quite as quickly as you'd hoped, or you can get your act together and get all the exams done in time.

If you see it as I can afford to spend X a month on flying for the forseeable future, and you're able to take say 2 or 3 lessons a month, you'll progress well and then still be able to afford flying after the course. Again, lots of people get in to this with unrealistic ideas of what having a licence will be like. Weather can cancel a planned trip, and hiring an aircraft from a flying school can be expensive and awkward, so the fact is you just end up flying to a random airfield, eating some bacon, then flying home with ultimately not a lot achieved at the end of it.

If you're seriously able to budget for a decent share in a decent aircraft and the ongoing costs that it involves then you'll have more chance of making good use of the PPL. If you're currently wondering whether you can afford the extra £4k that has been queried, I'd certainly think again about starting the course.

[Above The Clouds]

slipnpitch
I am new to Pprune. I recently had a trial flight at a reputable Flying School based in the North West.

Having now completed your trail flight, the first lesson in obtaining your PPL and parting with your well earned cash is.

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE DEAL SEEMS TO BE.

Lesson two, repeat the above sentence 100 times.

Otherwise enjoy your flying.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

9-10k may be doable, but (having done the sums for 55 - 65 hours plus odds and sods) you may find that you should keep 12k in mind as a contingency.

The absolutely vital thing, however, is to pay for one lesson at a time. I know that someone else has already said this, but

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

There are so many sob stories here from people who've lost their money when the school went bust, or (the most recent one) find themselves apparently stuck with a school and instructor they don't get on with because they can't get their money back - please don't come back in a few months' time with another such sob story. (If you do, we'll just tell you "you shouldn't have paid up front".)

[Mach Jump]

Welcome to Pprune

Sorry if the replies you are getting seem a bit negative, but I have to endorse the views above, esp. Pilot Dar and Whopity with regard to philosophy and cost of training..

Flying is a wonderful activity, but unfortunately, as the general public have little idea what to expect, they don't know if they are getting quality training until it's too late.

This means that, sadly, our industry attracts more than it's fair share of shysters.

The best advice is to follow a personal recomendation from someone you know, or ask here for people's views of the school you are thinking of spending a lot of money with.

A good indication of shysterism is an offer to give you a great discount if you pay for your training up front, hence the warnings above.

Don't let one rude person put you off the school you have had a good experience with though. He might not have even been a member of the staff, just someone who was passing as the phone rang.

I hope you have a great experience learning to fly and will come back and tell us how you are doing from time to time.

Oh, and, just in case it's been a few lines since someone said it, NEVER PAY UP FRONT!


MJ

[ChickenHouse]

For a while it was commonly found, and some schools do that fooling still, to advertise only the number of flight hours times cheapest training plane as price for a PPL - "Learn to fly for only 6,990" ... BUT this was never the full story.

This is what it looks here:
40h on a small trainer (C150, A210) -> 7,000
5h on a second type (C172, TB10) -> 1,200
(only flight hours from T/O to LDG paid after input after flight into registry system)
Theory costs -> 1,000
(course paid up front)
Administration -> 100
(due billed)
flight club -> 500
(we separate planes from education, externals pay +30% for charter)
---
subtotals -> 9,800
---
add
landing fees -> 750
(we are continental Europe and you have some LDGs at big airports)
radio operators license -> 250
(course required here)
medical -> 150
(paid to the doctor)
learning material and own headset -> 700
(we have a ready package, but even if you organize yourself you pay this, at least)
exam fee radio operators license -> 100
(billed by authorities before admission)
exam fees for PPL -> 250
(billed by authorities before admission)
---
totals -> 12,000

What I also tell students is to have the money for the next year and some 20+ flying hours ready - the license is a license to life-long-learnig and after passing, you have to start gather experience. My advice is always to have something like 16-17,000, better 20, to spare. What if you need 65 flight hours to exam and your money runs out? After passing be able to spend at least 250 a month for 24 month.

Advices for choosing a school:
- never never ever pay flight hours in advance
- dont trust flat packages
- look how flight hours are billed: real flight time, block time or checkout time (easy twice the flight time)
- get stories form folks having completed PPL at the school before signing

[Jan Olieslagers]

This is what it looks here:

Where?
Amounts are in € ?

[ChickenHouse]

This is €, but I saw comparable figures from UK friends in £.

[7of9]

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!!!!!

[gasax]

From the postings above you will have hopefully realised that flight training in the UK is a business with a few issues.

My local club has over the period of about 20 years been through at least 6 different manifestations - probably more as I cannot recite the varying owners / companies. So the 'reputable' flight school is quite likely to not exist in a couple of years.

The margins are tight and the hour building instructors tend to regard instructing as a waste of their precious time. Hence a complete lack of 'customer care' or even in many cases interest.

Then you add in pilots perceptions of what things cost (and how quickly they learnt). Time always adds a certain gloss, I learnt a long time ago and spent less than £2500. But it was a long time ago and that sum, spent in a single lump would have bought a modest car - new!

Current training costs? I have hired the odd aircraft and been staggered by the cost. But when I add up what mine costs per hour the comparison is much less unfavourable - simple human nature I guess.

Chickenhouse has identified the various costs and whilst you might be able to trim elements the overall total is in the right area. But you are not spending this in a single lump, you can decide when and for how long, although stringing it out over a longer period will necessitate a element of refresher training.

The trick is to see the training not as a barrier to having the freedom of the skies (well to a point) but as a pleasurable activity in itself. If nothing else that means you begrudge spending the money less!

[OpenCirrus619]

If you are learning to fly because you want to fly then you could consider learning on a Touring Motor Glider (TMG). This will cost around 60% of learning in a Single Engine Piston (SEP) aeroplane.

The downsides of this are:

• TMG schools are somewhat thin on the ground
• Once you have your licence you will only have a TMG rating
• At some point, once you have a few hours under your belt, you will probably want to add an SEP rating

You could also investigate the Microlight side of things.

OC619

[Capt Kremmen]

slipnpitch

Here is the best way of obtaining a PPL. It is the cheapest.

Get your medical done. If you have around £2000 in readies get onto Planes and Aircraft For Sale - Light Aircraft, Autogyros, Helicopters ... (UK). (Share & Groups) You can buy a share in a light a/c suitable for training for around £2K or less.

Talk to someone who knows light a/c and can advise you as to the most congenial training a/c eg. C150/152. PA38 (bit thin on the ground) PA28. Eurostar Group A (assuming you are going for Group A) or any other a/c that offers benign handling and has been used for training.

Go to your local flying club and check the advertising pages of Pilot/Flyer and pay for your own instructor to take you thru' the syllabus and ground school. At the end of it all you'll require an examiner. Your instructor will be able to arrange this.

At the end of it all, you'll have passed and still own a share in the familiar a/c you trained upon and which you can continue to fly and enjoy or, if you're fed up - sell and buy something else.

You can sit down with paper and pencil to do the sums to see how cost effective this method is without having to pay extortionate, profit loaded sums to FTOs that do not, as you've found out, appear to have much interest in you as a person rather than a cash machine.

Good luck and best wishes whichever route you take.

[ChickenHouse]

@Capt Kremmen: Is it legal to do training without FTO at your location? At many it is no longer after part-FCL came into place.

[glum]

I'm 1 year into my PPL training, and try to fly once a fortnight as that's what i can afford.

In 12 months I have flown for about 17 hours! This is a lot lower than the 26 one might expect, but as alluded to above, the weather, aircraft unserviceability, your holidays etc. will get in the way.

I'm close to going solo now, having bashed about the circuit for the last few hours but still need to pass my Air Law exam (club rules).

A month or so ago I told the instructor I was getting disillusioned with my crap landings, and needed to just go fly to remind myself why I was doing it.

One hour of bimbling round the sky and my passion was restored.

17 hours and not solo is about average, especially when flying as infrequently as I do. That's fine, it's not a race. I can't afford to fly any more often...

I do plan to keep this up as a hobby once licensed, so there is a plan post skills test and I know my salary will stretch to continued flying.


I'd probably ignore the desk jockey and focus on the instructor - they're the one you will be sitting next to for 50+ hours. If you don't get on with the first, switch to someone else - it's your money and your life.

Consider heading to the States for a fast track license.

Consider doing all the ground exams in a week's crash course.

Consider paying up front and don't do it.

[The500man]

Asking for a midweek discount isn't unreasonable. There are many places that offer, for example, 5-10 hour packages with discounts for quieter periods. I wouldn't suggest paying for a whole PPL package upfront but there is minimal risk in a 10 hour package if you plan to fly it all in three weeks. Also something no one likes to mention is with packages you may find you exceed your package and end up owing the school money. Somehow the school doesn't implode when that happens. Don't pay large sums upfront though and weigh any discount against the potential loss.

[Rod1]

There are a number of ways of getting a license at low cost but they depend on having more money to start with. The cheapest solution I have seen is a chap who bought an LAA aircraft outright, based it at a "club" airfield and paid one of the instructors £12 per hour. He passed in minimum time, was still flying the same aircraft 5 years later and spent way less on actually learning than he would using a traditional approach. Cost him £60k up front though.

Rod1