Some basic questions about ownership

[StueyB]

Hello Everyone!

I am thinking about getting into pleasure flying. Although not a plane spotter I do love going on planes when going on holiday. It makes for the best part of the trip for me

I have persuaded my wife to get me a test flight to ensure it is what I want. However I am interested in costs. I am, by no means filthy rich

The cost of obtaining the licencing and training is all very clear and expensive, but what about ongoing costs.

I'm interested to know how much it would cost for a small wholly owned light aircraft, plus fuel, maintainance, landing fees, storage fees etc.

Apologies if I have asked anything a bit too stupid!

Regards

StueyB

[Rod1]

Welcome to PPrune! As I am sure you are aware this is a "how long is a bit of string" question. If you are happy with two seats and do some work yourself than you could get a Jodel 117 or similar for around £14k;

Insurance around £1000
Hangarage (midlands) around £1000 on a strip, £3000 on a licensed airfield.
Maintenance for a year £1000
Fuel 21lph of UL Petrol.

My own aircraft is an MCR01 Club (worth around £48k). The actual numbers are;

Insurance £850
Hangarage £1000
Maintenance £340 (average over 8 years)
Fuel 18.5 lph UL Petrol.

Off round Europe in her in a few weeks, but it is a reasonable weather only machine. If you want to fly in bad weather with icing then the cost is huge.

Rod1

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Another piece of string

Hi Stuey,

Welcome to the flying world. I’m afraid you’ve asked the proverbial ‘how long is a piece of string’ question. As you can ascertain from a search of this and other forums, the cost of earning your Private Pilot Licence (of what ever flavour <EASA PPL, LAPA, NPPL> you choose) is usually a function of age, enthusiasm and proximity to the airfield or strip. It’s also a case of getting on with your instructor, as you are going to spend a lot of time in a confined space with this person. You should regard the minimum quoted by any club or organisation as just that, a minimum. There is also the million dollar question ‘what do you want to achieve from your flying?’ Are you aiming for a job with the airlines, or a pleasant evening’s bimble around the local countryside?

Once you have a licence, you have choices about how to proceed. If you have gone down the microlight route you will probably need to buy an aircraft, or at least a share in one. Few microlight schools, particularly the smaller ones, are happy renting their aircraft to former students. By referring to microlights that’s not just weight shift machines, but also includes some very capable ‘conventional’ aircraft that are indistinguishable from the ‘Group A’ version.

Group A aircraft are the Cessna and Piper machines, on which you’ll probably learn if you go down that route. These are more readily available to hire and group / shared ownership options are more common.

Like any hobby or other black hole for absorbing money, it will take as much as you are prepared to lob in to it. The instructional hourly rates will give you an idea about solo hire rates post PPL, bearing in mind the caveats above. There is a discussion going on at present on another Forum about the cost of operating Permit Aircraft. These are homebuilt or vintage types, as well as some orphaned models where the original manufacturer has either gone out of business or doesn’t support that model any more. Operating costs include several broad headings: Hangerage, Insurance, Maintenance, Hourly costs (fuel, oil etc). These will vary with different aircraft.

Probably the best visit as many flying clubs, flying schools and microlight fields as you can find in your area. Ask the people there all the questions you can think of. If the instructors are busy, talk to the pilots and students. Most will be happy to recount their experiences. You will probably find that the number or answers you get is equal the square of the number of pilots present….

Enjoy you trial lesson.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

I spent so long with my 1 finger typing that Rod1 got in with a more direct response....

[Jan Olieslagers]

More questions than answers...

Have you any estimate how many hours you will be flying per annum? With a full time job and perhaps a family who want you to look into them now and again, it will be nice if you can manage 50 hours each year.

50 hours per year is "generally considered" the minimum to economically justify full ownership. Have you considered joining a syndicate?

Do you really want a "plane" (termed "Group A" by Richard WK above)? iow have you considered microlighting? There are some limitations, but a mid-range microlight offers every satisfaction you could get from a two-seater "plane" such as a C152 or Jodel - and there are high-end microlights that merrily outperform them. Another alternative might be a Permit-to-Fly plane - just like microlights, these allow you to do your own maintenance and repair, up to a certain point. That is a big cost saver, IF you enjoy tinkering AND have some knowledgeable fellows ready to help at need.

But if you want more than two seats, or two seats plus fuel for several hours' flying plus luggage for a week or so then a microlight is insufficient.

And still on the budget subject: remember to think about setting up a fund for major costs such as engine overhauls.

[StueyB]

Hi.

Thanks for the info. I realise it is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" type question. To use car terms, you can get a £1000 small car with high mileage, but cheap to run or a new BMW with a huge engine and costs to match.

I did look at the Microlights (That's how I first happened upon the whole thing really)

At least I have some figures to work with now. If you had turned round and said "£20K to start" I would have been a little crest fallen as it would not be viable at that price range. Do autotrader do planes yet

I think for now, I will just hang tight and read the forums, waiting for my day (ahem, hour! ) in the sky.

[foxmoth]

Another thing you might like to consider is joining a group, this is quite common in flying and even in quite a large group (10+) you will find that availability is generally very good and this brings the costs down considerably, a group of 3 or 4 people works extremely well for most.

[magpienja]

Stuey I see like me you are in Cheshire..I'm North Cheshire....you say you looked at microlights....did you not like them you didn't say,

I fly a weight shift micro...depending how much you want to spend and older version of Flex can be had for as little as 2k...perfectly capable machine...

It will have a 2 stroke engine like mine in it for that price bracket or min £9-10k for a 4 stroke machine,

Insurance 3rd party £230 with passenger cover....annual permit around £200 providing no work is req,

BMAA membership...£65 aprox...and what ever the airfield charges to operate from it,

Depending on how many hour per year you fly it can be cheaper to hire...the school attached to the airfield I fly from will Hire a micro both types for £75 ph inc fuel,

For me owning my own aircraft is near as much fun as flying it...

[Piper.Classique]

How much have you got?
That's usually how much it costs

[DeltaV]

To use car terms, you can get a £1000 small car with high mileage, but cheap to run or a new BMW with a huge engine and costs to match.

I did look at the Microlights (That's how I first happened upon the whole thing really)

There is a weightshift microlight on the same field as me that the present owners found neglected in the back of a hangar and bought for a few hundred quid. They cleaned it up, got it checked out, renewed the paperwork and now they fly it at very little cost. OK, it's not top of the line but nor is it a tatty wreck and it flies, so it can be done, though it probably needs a little patience.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

In terms of buying aeroplanes, there are various websites that list available aircraft. Although Autotrader has not yet entered the market and Exchange & Mart are viewed with some suspicion in aviation circles.

The one of the aviation equivalents most popular in the UK is AFORS (Aircraft For Sale). This covers Group A as well as Microlights. The usual caveats about buying second hand and advertising apply. It will give you a general idea of asking prices at the moment; whether those will still apply when you come to actually wanting to buy is an open question.

The overall aircraft market is not quite as straightforward as the motor trade. Some Group A aircraft are relatively cheap to buy, in part because they are expensive to run. Some aircraft have components that must be changed after a certain number of flying hours or years in service. Predictably aircraft parts are specialised and expensive. The turn over of aircraft is far slower than cars; much fewer new ones are bought each year. In general terms aircraft are better maintained than the equivalent car, but the technology is lagging (when did you last encounter a car with magneto ignition?)

Enjoy the learning process and keep asking the questions.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by DeltaV

There is a weightshift microlight on the same field as me that the present owners found neglected in the back of a hangar and bought for a few hundred quid. They cleaned it up, got it checked out, renewed the paperwork and now they fly it at very little cost. OK, it's not top of the line but nor is it a tatty wreck and it flies, so it can be done, though it probably needs a little patience.

I share a flexwing with 2 friends. The aircraft is worth about £4k. Between us for everything (hangarage, hull insurance, maintenance, the lot) we pay about £1,500-£2,000 pa. After that it's fuel and oil - which is about another £25/hr.

This would be achievable, at similar costs, with any number of cheap second hand microlights (both weightshift / flexwing and 3-axis / conventional costing in the order of £1,500-£8,000, with 2-seaters starting around £2,500.

The big gotcha with aircraft like that is the cost of replacing the skins if they die of old age (there's an annual compulsory test with a device called a Bettsometer) - that can be £3-£5k, but that said, they should well looked after be good for 20 years at least.

G

[Maoraigh1]

I bought a 1/6 share in an Inverness based Jodel DR1050 in January 1990 for £1600. The last share sell was £2200. We've almost £9,000 in Group funds. (NO shares for sale).
It's an EASA Annex2 2+2 seater, 4 hours endurance, 115kts cruise, on an LAA Permit.
£60 per hour wet, + landing charge. £50 per month for hangarage, insurance, etc.
We've just got our Permit renewal signed off. It's a cheap one - but only because 4 of us are retired. The hours of work would have put it to over £4000 if we'd had to pay. Five days, about 5 hours per day, with 2-3 working.
In 2013 I flew 71.7 tach hours, for £4302.60, +£720 in monthly charges, and £10 per Inverness landing. Car parking is included in hangarage.
Contact your local LAA Strut/branch. (Google LAA)

[Tay Cough]

See how many hours you're likely to do in a year before you commit to purchasing.

(Very) roughly speaking, if you do fewer than 20, hire. If you do fewer than 200, share. If you do more than 200, buy.

There are exceptions to this rule. If it's a rare aeroplane that you really want, you may have to buy it (you could always syndicate it afterwards). If it's an LAA type, the numbers above probably reduce a bit.

[phiggsbroadband]

There is all types of Flying...

There are many things you can do once you have your PPL, from the simplest couple of circuits, or a Land-Away for a cup of tea at a distant airstrip, or a visit to a seaside town, with a trip by taxi to the seafront. Also complete holidays at a distant or foreign destination.


Most clubs will allow you to take their aircraft out for just a morning or afternoon, so trips to a distant airfield are possible for about £105/hr in the club C152.


For longer stays away, a group syndicate aircraft is most likely the cheapest option, as you can book the aircraft for a few days on the run, and only pay the fuel costs. However you need to be good with your weather predictions, and be certain that the route will be VFR for you return flight.


Some clubs will require you to be 1 month current on their complex aircraft (fuel injected, GPS, auto-pilot, or VP prop etc.), and you also need to be current for passenger flying.... So some of your flights will be just a few circuits to maintain your currency, if the weather has been bad for a few months.


.

[ChickenHouse]

What a question ... as always, it depends.

I would take for granted the 50h per annum minimum flight time as crucial for ownership. Everything below is usually economically unjustifiable. Total costs will start at around 5.000 Euro a year (not depreciating the purchase price), BUT there is no upper limit.

So, we are stuck in examples from fellow flyers and that has the nickety of very few people really calculate total costs. I had to do, because I am using the plane partly to commute and the tax office wants me to present TCO data.

Running at about 120 hours a year on an old 172 gives about 125 Euros per hour operational cost and 185 Euros per hour total cost (purchase and several avionics updates, such as Mode-S and GNS430 are depreciated over 10 years, calculation according to standard commercial framework). This also demonstrates why 50h/a won't be advisable - at 120h non-operational costs are about 1/3, at 50h it would be already about 55% = more then half of your money goes away for letting the plane stand somewhere.

[foxmoth]

Chickenhouse,
I am very surprised you get your hourly rate so low on only 120 hours pa, maybe where you are things are cheaper than the UK.
I was told many years ago that financially the break even point is 300 hours pa and I would say that on a like for like basis that is pretty accurate, start operating LAA types and you can then bring the costs down, especially if you can operate out of a farm strip. You do also need to factor in convenience and availability as well though and only the individual can work out how much that is worth to them.

[18greens]

Maoraigh1

I bought a 1/6 share in an Inverness based Jodel DR1050 in January 1990 for £1600. The last share sell was £2200. We've almost £9,000 in Group funds. (NO shares for sale).

No shares for sale... One thing I know about groups is there is always always a share for sale. The only question being the price.....

[Gertrude the Wombat]

(Very) roughly speaking, if you do fewer than 20, hire.

Which is, surely, the majority of private pilots?

[ChickenHouse]

Chickenhouse,
I am very surprised you get your hourly rate so low on only 120 hours pa, maybe where you are things are cheaper than the UK.
I was told many years ago that financially the break even point is 300 hours pa and I would say that on a like for like basis that is pretty accurate, start operating LAA types and you can then bring the costs down, especially if you can operate out of a farm strip. You do also need to factor in convenience and availability as well though and only the individual can work out how much that is worth to them.

@Foxmoth: I doubt any things are cheap in Continental Europe, but if you go for an old plane for little money instead of a shiny brandnew XYZ ... 300 hours break even sounds like somebody buying new and trying to justify that. My numbers are for venerable F172 (takes auto gas if nothing else is available) and even operated from a large airport (hangar contributes 30 Euro / h alone). This is what I meant - you CAN fly for little money, but there is almost no limit up.

[Rod1]

The hours to break even for ownership v hiring is not that complex. If you take the running costs of my aircraft and compare it with hiring a 152 from my local club the break even is 22h. That is very kind to the hire option as the 152 is about 1/3 slower. The only expense not included in the above is money spent on upgrades, in this case a mode s transponder, an EFIS and some other bits. Add this in (I have run the aircraft for 8 years) and the break even moves out to 28 hours, but the 152 has none of the advanced functionality so 22 is a better fit. After all the upgrades were entirely optional.

It is true that the above excludes a few things. I have not built in depreciation. The aircraft is worth almost exactly what it cost me to build it but that money will have gone down in value due to inflation. On the other hand I have not had to pay for check rides, minimum hire per day charges etc which would, in my case, add up to a lot of cash.

If we compare LAA ownership with C of A ownership then I have saved around £70,000 over 8 years compared with my old AA5B. This compares with an original business case which predicted £80,000. The defect is entirely down to less hours flown than planed. I have no idea how costs compare in Europe generally, but my French friends seem to run on very similar costs to me under the RSA.

Rod1