Glider winch launch question
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A great thread about safety point of winch launching. Re the guillotines. One boring rainy day a few of us winch drivers decided to test the guillotine, we had never seen one operate and thought it might be useful. We cleared the area and pulled the handle, it would not budge, the cables were rusted solid. I asked how often they were checked as a matter of routine, never got a reply.
I'm surprised the op hasn't asked the more pressing question of winch launching being 'what's it like?'
In my opinion it's the nearest thing to being launched from a carrier. Lots of nerves as the cable snakes away from you to full tension, stick held fully forward ( the Ka8 wants to fly too much) then the whoosh of speed as it accelerates to flying speed always threatening to drop a wing.As it launches 2 seconds later there's the tension of how far to pitch up, not enough and you over speed, too much and a cable break means you stall into the ground. Then you are into the full climb 30 deg nose up, monitoring vmax on the winch (51kts) a fair amount of back pressure on the stick ( but not too much). Then as you approach the top of the climb it flattens off. How are you going to release. If you pull off under tension the cable snakes back to the winch driver. You wait for the driver to back off constantly trying to squeeze a few extra feet. We used to wait for the back release then pull on the bung twice to make sure the cable had released. Then the environment changed instantly from hectic rushing to serene floating.
Not sure what other experience equals it.
I'm surprised the op hasn't asked the more pressing question of winch launching being 'what's it like?'
In my opinion it's the nearest thing to being launched from a carrier. Lots of nerves as the cable snakes away from you to full tension, stick held fully forward ( the Ka8 wants to fly too much) then the whoosh of speed as it accelerates to flying speed always threatening to drop a wing.As it launches 2 seconds later there's the tension of how far to pitch up, not enough and you over speed, too much and a cable break means you stall into the ground. Then you are into the full climb 30 deg nose up, monitoring vmax on the winch (51kts) a fair amount of back pressure on the stick ( but not too much). Then as you approach the top of the climb it flattens off. How are you going to release. If you pull off under tension the cable snakes back to the winch driver. You wait for the driver to back off constantly trying to squeeze a few extra feet. We used to wait for the back release then pull on the bung twice to make sure the cable had released. Then the environment changed instantly from hectic rushing to serene floating.
Not sure what other experience equals it.
2,000ft? Pah, that's a normal good launch.
Upavon, March 1961, T21 with John Willie flying to demonstrate the technique, Taff Thomas winching.
At 3,200 or thereabouts it back released. Taff had noticed there were about 5 turns left on the drum, so let three of them out rapidly. He didn't know what would happen if it didn't back release
Upavon, March 1961, T21 with John Willie flying to demonstrate the technique, Taff Thomas winching.
At 3,200 or thereabouts it back released. Taff had noticed there were about 5 turns left on the drum, so let three of them out rapidly. He didn't know what would happen if it didn't back release
The Ka 8 - a nice, docile little glider that is a pleasure to fly and can just barely kill you when flying without a rope attached. But during a winch launch, it turned into a nasty little beast trying to bite everyone involved.
The CG hook is mounted below the pilots seat, but moved a bit to the left side, as the centerline is already occupied by the nose skid. So not only the mentioned strong tendency to pitch up is present (due to the hook being WAY below the CG), it also loves to turn to the right just as rapidly during initial tow. When I first flew this type, I was a bit familiar with these effects from flying the K13 previously, but received a well justified and thorough warning to expect the same, only much stronger, by the instructor that signed me off. Still, I was surprised during my first launch.
A good winch driver makes much of a difference here; opening the throttle only moderately instead of jerking the glider into the air makes life much easier for the pilot. And in strong headwinds, a good launch has often resulted in release heights of 800-1000m (on a 1100m field) on this type.
The CG hook is mounted below the pilots seat, but moved a bit to the left side, as the centerline is already occupied by the nose skid. So not only the mentioned strong tendency to pitch up is present (due to the hook being WAY below the CG), it also loves to turn to the right just as rapidly during initial tow. When I first flew this type, I was a bit familiar with these effects from flying the K13 previously, but received a well justified and thorough warning to expect the same, only much stronger, by the instructor that signed me off. Still, I was surprised during my first launch.
A good winch driver makes much of a difference here; opening the throttle only moderately instead of jerking the glider into the air makes life much easier for the pilot. And in strong headwinds, a good launch has often resulted in release heights of 800-1000m (on a 1100m field) on this type.
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Don't forget all you 'kiters' that your site has a max launch height-yes I know some are unlimited. So when you look up at the next power guy to fly over the top of your site at what he deems a safe height, because your max launch height is marked on the map innit, don't call him a plonker and then see fit to break your own height limit on launch. I might add I fly gliders too, but not all power pilots have much of a clue about gliding, so if it says 'Cables to 2,000' then a lot of power pilots will simply think 'OK I'm safe at 2,500 then' only to find a kiter (kitee?) spoiling their day with a quick and one way conversation with a cable.
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The Blanik L13 as made also had a fixed bungee hook - which really was just a hook of metal protruding out from the Belly near the front.
I'm told they were all ordered (in the UK) to be cut off as they were an obvious danger to some form of hang up occurring where the cable might manage to get snagged up on it.
I learnt on a Blanik L13 on the winch so have very many flights as both P2 and solo as P1. I loved flying it solo - more so than the K8.
I can also remember the equally many rocket launches in the K8 thanks to an over enthusiastic winch driver who had just launched a series of 2 seaters and was still on autopilot - where it did indeed seem more akin to a steam catapult launch off an a/c carrier deck.
The worst and indeed most memorable was one where the acceleration rate was so high that both my feet lifted off the rudder pedals. The wing handler later reported that he did not move an inch much less actually run with the wing - come the "all out" signal the wing was snatched out of his hands as the K8 accelerated away.
I'm told they were all ordered (in the UK) to be cut off as they were an obvious danger to some form of hang up occurring where the cable might manage to get snagged up on it.
I learnt on a Blanik L13 on the winch so have very many flights as both P2 and solo as P1. I loved flying it solo - more so than the K8.
I can also remember the equally many rocket launches in the K8 thanks to an over enthusiastic winch driver who had just launched a series of 2 seaters and was still on autopilot - where it did indeed seem more akin to a steam catapult launch off an a/c carrier deck.
The worst and indeed most memorable was one where the acceleration rate was so high that both my feet lifted off the rudder pedals. The wing handler later reported that he did not move an inch much less actually run with the wing - come the "all out" signal the wing was snatched out of his hands as the K8 accelerated away.
Yes by a certain date the majority of 'western' Blankets had the fixed hook sawn off.
It was great fun 'oilcanning' around the sky in that lovely tin armchair,I did most of my blanket flying in africa...we were only allowed 2 solos in the L13 because they were too valuable to risk with early solo pilots - and then it was straight into a Slingsby Swallow - some people found the transition from the tin armchair to the little wooden thing with no nose very difficult
One of our guys on his first Swallow flight - his feet came off the rudder pedals and when he placed them back on - he missed - and put them on a fuselage frame - he thought the rudder was jammed ! LOL
I was happy to fly the swallow because I had originally flown T31's....but it was definitely a backward step from the 'Blanket'
It was great fun 'oilcanning' around the sky in that lovely tin armchair,I did most of my blanket flying in africa...we were only allowed 2 solos in the L13 because they were too valuable to risk with early solo pilots - and then it was straight into a Slingsby Swallow - some people found the transition from the tin armchair to the little wooden thing with no nose very difficult
One of our guys on his first Swallow flight - his feet came off the rudder pedals and when he placed them back on - he missed - and put them on a fuselage frame - he thought the rudder was jammed ! LOL
I was happy to fly the swallow because I had originally flown T31's....but it was definitely a backward step from the 'Blanket'
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Ah yes, the acceleration of the K8 snatching the wingtip right away from the hapless runner!
Add to that two failed launches (piano wire, this was in the old days when cable breaks were the norm), and the fact that SQUISHY CUSHIONS were part of the mix. Cushions shifted a bit, sudden acceleration, Mary gets pressed against the back of the seat and departs the controls!
No, I didn't try to hang onto the stick, that would have made things worse!
Pulling back on the stick when departing the controls adds up to high speed stall. And no way could I reach the release handle! (this was before new training emphasized HAND ON RELEASE!).
So I did nothing at all but rode the K8 up the wire, and by some happy chance the launch was smooth and directly into wind, and both of us (me and the K8) survived to fly another day.
Exactly that scenario did kill a young lady, squishy cushions, but she hung onto the stick and ....
Surprising how doing nothing may be the correct decision. Nowadays if you need cushions behind your back to be correctly seated, we use a stack of NEWSPAPERS, securely wrapped in tape and covered in fabric. These are non compressible.
And under your bum, a special type of foam impact cusion will can protect your spine if a heavy landing takes place.
Add to that two failed launches (piano wire, this was in the old days when cable breaks were the norm), and the fact that SQUISHY CUSHIONS were part of the mix. Cushions shifted a bit, sudden acceleration, Mary gets pressed against the back of the seat and departs the controls!
No, I didn't try to hang onto the stick, that would have made things worse!
Pulling back on the stick when departing the controls adds up to high speed stall. And no way could I reach the release handle! (this was before new training emphasized HAND ON RELEASE!).
So I did nothing at all but rode the K8 up the wire, and by some happy chance the launch was smooth and directly into wind, and both of us (me and the K8) survived to fly another day.
Exactly that scenario did kill a young lady, squishy cushions, but she hung onto the stick and ....
Surprising how doing nothing may be the correct decision. Nowadays if you need cushions behind your back to be correctly seated, we use a stack of NEWSPAPERS, securely wrapped in tape and covered in fabric. These are non compressible.
And under your bum, a special type of foam impact cusion will can protect your spine if a heavy landing takes place.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Longer ron, where were you flying in Africa?
Treadigraph
Midlands Gliding Club,Moffat Field,Gwelo,Zimbabwe.
We used fencing wire (loads of cable breaks LOL) for winch launching 2 Blaniks,1 swallow,1 Skylark 3b,1 Dart 15.
Lovely flying conditions sometimes - my best climb was from 600' (in the cct) up to 11,000' AGL in the old Skylark.
In the summer I only worked until 1.00pm (too hotnbumpy for jets) and quite often went gliding to utilise some of those 'bumps'
Have you flown in africa ?
rgds LR
Midlands Gliding Club,Moffat Field,Gwelo,Zimbabwe.
We used fencing wire (loads of cable breaks LOL) for winch launching 2 Blaniks,1 swallow,1 Skylark 3b,1 Dart 15.
Lovely flying conditions sometimes - my best climb was from 600' (in the cct) up to 11,000' AGL in the old Skylark.
In the summer I only worked until 1.00pm (too hotnbumpy for jets) and quite often went gliding to utilise some of those 'bumps'
Have you flown in africa ?
rgds LR
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Yes, as a passenger nipper in a Blanik and T-21 at Nakuru, Kenya circa 1970-72. Wondered if you might have been there too. The club also had a Swallow, I can't recall other club gliders, but a number of Germans visited in '72 with ASW-17s and other exotica, and Walter Neubert set a world distance record (300k triangle I think). There was an air to air pic of one of them soaring close to the peak of Mount Kenya.
We kids mostly rode in the back of the tow car and helped retrieve the cable, or sometimes flew in the back of the Citabria.
I was only 8, but I recall it as great fun!
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Funnily enough I was talking at the gliding club today to a guy that had flown out in Namibia. He reckons 12-13 thousand foot thermals are quite normal.
Ah yes Nakuru -almost booked a holiday there once !
Glad you had a great time TG
At Gwelo we were at approx 4,500' ASL - the day/night temp difference could be as much as 30 deg...which is great for cloudbase,I certainly know of definite 12,000' base in zim...although never quite got there myself
Glad you had a great time TG
Funnily enough I was talking at the gliding club today to a guy that had flown out in Namibia. He reckons 12-13 thousand foot thermals are quite normal.
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At Gwelo we were at approx 4,500' ASL - the day/night temp difference could be as much as 30 deg...which is great for cloudbase,I certainly know of definite 12,000' base in zim...although never quite got there myself
Off to Oz in five weeks; haven't flown there but apparently the cloudbase is off the beserk scale, oxygen required, that sort of thing.
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Off to Oz in five weeks; haven't flown there but apparently the cloudbase is off the beserk scale, oxygen required, that sort of thing.
I flew in OZ in 2012 (in winter - mid-year) and again in 2013 (in summer - around Christmas). Winter was very much like the British summer; but summer was quite different where cloud base was 12-15 thousand feet and you could "in theory" thermal all the way up. However, where I was flying the transponder level was 10 thousand so you kept under that.
Flying into a 12+ thermal was like being hit by a train and then staying in it was like being in a washing machine. I also remember forgoing stronger thermals in the blue to take weaker thermals under clouds just to hide from the sun. One vivid memory of flying in OZ during summer was 39 degrees on the ground and still 30 degrees at 2-3 thousand feet - it was a relief to climb above that into cooler air as the cockpit was worse than a greenhouse - coming back down below 2-3 thousand was torture.
I've turned up at the little OZ club I was flying at more than once with perfect skies with Cu popping everywhere at 5 thousand plus and been told they weren't opening the hangar doors as the day wasn't good enough; so they were going to mow the grass instead. But like everything in gliding - the weather may be against you. I've traveled half-way around the world to fly - and the airfield was 10 feet under water only a few weeks after being evacuated because of being threatened by a bush fire.
Back to winch launching.....sort of
While scrabbling around in the back of my standard Mucha I found it has all the fittings, even the release cable, for a winch hook.
So my question is, has anyone knowledge of the whereabouts of a spare belly hook?
It won't be a Tost unless I am mistaken, the aerotow hook isn't, it is some Polish make, but I suspect a Tost hook might go in. Needs a hole cutting in the ply anyway.
While scrabbling around in the back of my standard Mucha I found it has all the fittings, even the release cable, for a winch hook.
So my question is, has anyone knowledge of the whereabouts of a spare belly hook?
It won't be a Tost unless I am mistaken, the aerotow hook isn't, it is some Polish make, but I suspect a Tost hook might go in. Needs a hole cutting in the ply anyway.
Flying into a 12+ thermal was like being hit by a train and then staying in it was like being in a washing machine
I had a couple of wild thermal rides in the old Skylark where the vario was off the clock,I didn't dare look out at what the wings were doing and I was using full aileron and rudder just to prevent myself being spat out of the thermal - was feeling a wee bit peely-wally by the top of the climb !They made me do my x country qualifying field landing in the skylark on an extremely good day... I said to leave it until the evening but no.....
So i made a point of thermalling (climbing) over their heads with the brakes fully open
- I just scraped into the marked out area but it really was a silly exercise in those conditions !
Last edited by longer ron; 3rd Jul 2014 at 18:43.
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Where in OZ?
