CAS question for the controllers
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CAS question for the controllers
Was leaving an airfield on the very edge of Class D the other day with the intention of driving straight out of the CAS. I called the local controller at 500'. I asked for a transit out of CAS and was met with a frosty 'You are already in CAS.'
I doubt I was, the a/c I was in climbs at 1,000 fpm and it's not going that fast while doing so so I reckon I was still well in the ATZ. How fast do you have to be in these situations to call the local controller? It's an airfield I visit often and always fly the same departure and have never had any problems before. TBH I always looked on the call as a courtesy one as you are out of CAS almost as soon as you're out of the ATZ.
I doubt I was, the a/c I was in climbs at 1,000 fpm and it's not going that fast while doing so so I reckon I was still well in the ATZ. How fast do you have to be in these situations to call the local controller? It's an airfield I visit often and always fly the same departure and have never had any problems before. TBH I always looked on the call as a courtesy one as you are out of CAS almost as soon as you're out of the ATZ.
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If you look at the letter of the law, then an ATZ doesn't make you exempt from the rules and regulations of the CAS. You're in CAS, so you need permission from the CAS controlling agency. Simple. For inbound traffic that means you need to contact them 10 miles/5 minutes out, for outbound traffic it means you need a departure clearance from them before taking off. (And that is typically arranged by telephone, either by yourself or by the A/G operator, and includes a clearance void time.)
However, this clearly becomes unpractical both the main and the A/G airfield are busy. So what typically happens is that a local agreement between the main airfield and A/G airfield is reached whereby you can enter and exit CAS via a certain route, possibly squawking a certain code, to arrive at or depart from the A/G airfield. And if you adhere to those procedures, you don't have to talk to the CAS operator.
In certain cases, this local agreement is actually enforced by introducing a Special Rules Zone (SRZ) or something similar to that. The example that comes to mind is EHBD which wholly lies in the EBBL CTR. The CTR (class C) extends from the surface to 3000', but there's an ATZ with additional rules, from the surface to 1200' where you are exempt from the normal CAS regulations. But only during UDP for instance - at night it's just one big class C CTR.
These agreements tend not to be generic, but specific to the local situation. They should therefore be listed in the AIP entry, flight guide entry or website of the airfield.
So without knowing what airfield you are talking about, it's hard to give you a specific answer to your question.
However, this clearly becomes unpractical both the main and the A/G airfield are busy. So what typically happens is that a local agreement between the main airfield and A/G airfield is reached whereby you can enter and exit CAS via a certain route, possibly squawking a certain code, to arrive at or depart from the A/G airfield. And if you adhere to those procedures, you don't have to talk to the CAS operator.
In certain cases, this local agreement is actually enforced by introducing a Special Rules Zone (SRZ) or something similar to that. The example that comes to mind is EHBD which wholly lies in the EBBL CTR. The CTR (class C) extends from the surface to 3000', but there's an ATZ with additional rules, from the surface to 1200' where you are exempt from the normal CAS regulations. But only during UDP for instance - at night it's just one big class C CTR.
These agreements tend not to be generic, but specific to the local situation. They should therefore be listed in the AIP entry, flight guide entry or website of the airfield.
So without knowing what airfield you are talking about, it's hard to give you a specific answer to your question.
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It's Sandtoft. The relevant bit of the AIP says 'All Sandtoft arrivals and departures are to contact Doncaster Radar on 126.225 for clearance through CTR/CTA'. Which is what I did. Doesn't say telephone them before hand.
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I have been in and out of Sandtoft many times. The CAS boundary cuts through the centre of the airfield, and leaving to the North and remaining beneath the CTA, you are out of CAS almost immediately. I have never had any issue with a controller doing this and have only ever called once airborne.
If leaving and wishing to route south or south west I would skirt the zone beneath the CTAs until a clearance is obtained, or conceivably I might telephone first in order to arrange a direct transit once airborne. However, I can't see that this could readily be agreed over the phone, since by the time one is airborne the situation may well have changed and any earlier approval may no longer be appropriate, thus necessitating remaining beneath the CTA until a new clearance has been obtained in which case why bother phoning in the first place!
If leaving and wishing to route south or south west I would skirt the zone beneath the CTAs until a clearance is obtained, or conceivably I might telephone first in order to arrange a direct transit once airborne. However, I can't see that this could readily be agreed over the phone, since by the time one is airborne the situation may well have changed and any earlier approval may no longer be appropriate, thus necessitating remaining beneath the CTA until a new clearance has been obtained in which case why bother phoning in the first place!
What direction were you leaving the ATZ? If I remember correctly, Sandtoft have an agreement with Doncaster that any aircraft can enter and leave the Sandtoft ATZ, below 1500', anywhere NE of a line drawn approx NW to SE through Sandtoft Airfield, without contacting them at all.
MJ
MJ
I would imagine there is a 'Letter of Agreement' (LoA) in force between Finningley and Sandtoft which covers this situation.
Yes I know it's not Finningley any more, but having been stationed at Lindholme and flown from RAF Finningley, that's how I'll always know it.
Yes I know it's not Finningley any more, but having been stationed at Lindholme and flown from RAF Finningley, that's how I'll always know it.
Yes I know it's not Finningley any more...
I wonder.... When 'Doncaster' becomes a disused airfield again (retail park), will we still call it 'Doncaster', or revert to 'Finningley'? MJ
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What direction were you leaving the ATZ?
Concerning the amount of movements, Humberside which is just up the road has more movements than Donny yet gets by with an ATZ...although there's usually some airline or other doing ciruit training at Donny.
Yes I know it's not Finningley any more, but having been stationed at Lindholme and flown from RAF Finningley, that's how I'll always know it.
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Have you tried calling Doncaster while you are still on the ground?
As a bit of an aside, I've just looked in the AIP to see what it says (I'm having a very dull day at work!) and it strikes me as the most colossally overengineered bit of airspace for the sort of activity that goes on in the area.
But your aerodrome looks to be firmly located under the EGCN CTA (the bit labelled CTA-1 in the chart on AD 2-EGCN-4-1). If departing from 05 and carrying on in that general direction and staying below 1500' ALT it looks like you could well be outside CAS. Head E to the Trent (below 1500/2000) and as you allude to, you're going to stay in class G. So "Nyahhh" to the controller!
More seriously, especially if you can't get good 2-way comms on the ground, it seems odd that there isn't some agreement or procedure in place to allow aircraft that want to transit the CTR/A to get airborne and up to a decent level in order to get the call in. Perhaps 1000' ALT and staying E of a line drawn N-S through Sandtoft - I've worked with something along those lines in a similar situation.
If I'm permitted to drift off the original point a little (told you work is dull today)...I wonder if the reason for the seemingly unnecessarily complex airspace is an attempt to mollify some of the multitude of objections that are almost routinely raised against any proposal to change or establish a bit of airspace. There surely should be no problem with class D airspace for VFR traffic in a situation like this. And maybe the objections are because controllers have a tendency to treat the airspace as 'theirs' and try to protect it from aircraft whether there's anything significant using the airport or not (I'm not having a go but I've worked with people like that)? I've never really understood that view but it was prevalent in the past. It always seemed to me that the CAA, along with establishing airspace, should have had an obligation to ensure that all users were granted fair and equitable access.
Drat, something's just arrived in my 'In' tray!
As a bit of an aside, I've just looked in the AIP to see what it says (I'm having a very dull day at work!) and it strikes me as the most colossally overengineered bit of airspace for the sort of activity that goes on in the area.
But your aerodrome looks to be firmly located under the EGCN CTA (the bit labelled CTA-1 in the chart on AD 2-EGCN-4-1). If departing from 05 and carrying on in that general direction and staying below 1500' ALT it looks like you could well be outside CAS. Head E to the Trent (below 1500/2000) and as you allude to, you're going to stay in class G. So "Nyahhh" to the controller!
More seriously, especially if you can't get good 2-way comms on the ground, it seems odd that there isn't some agreement or procedure in place to allow aircraft that want to transit the CTR/A to get airborne and up to a decent level in order to get the call in. Perhaps 1000' ALT and staying E of a line drawn N-S through Sandtoft - I've worked with something along those lines in a similar situation.
If I'm permitted to drift off the original point a little (told you work is dull today)...I wonder if the reason for the seemingly unnecessarily complex airspace is an attempt to mollify some of the multitude of objections that are almost routinely raised against any proposal to change or establish a bit of airspace. There surely should be no problem with class D airspace for VFR traffic in a situation like this. And maybe the objections are because controllers have a tendency to treat the airspace as 'theirs' and try to protect it from aircraft whether there's anything significant using the airport or not (I'm not having a go but I've worked with people like that)? I've never really understood that view but it was prevalent in the past. It always seemed to me that the CAA, along with establishing airspace, should have had an obligation to ensure that all users were granted fair and equitable access.
Drat, something's just arrived in my 'In' tray!
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As I say, it wasn't the usual controller I get. It's the third or fourth time I've been to Sandtoft this year and normally have no problems at all. Well I didn't have a problem this time but I'd never heard that controllers voice before. Normally Doncaster Radar bend over backwards to get you across the zone. I've only once been diverted around the edge in the last three years. I tend to go across it fairly regularly on my way to places. If you want to go anywhere from my place that's within a 270-340 track then you're going across it.
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Past experience for me has been to call Doncaster at about 300-500ft on climb out and request a zone transit to the south. I've never had a problem.
As Doncaster Radar is provided from Liverpool, I wonder if it was a controller who works Liverpool normally and maybe isn't aware of how to deal with Sandtoft departures.
As Doncaster Radar is provided from Liverpool, I wonder if it was a controller who works Liverpool normally and maybe isn't aware of how to deal with Sandtoft departures.
