Scottish Independence
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Scottish Independence
Has anyone thought through what might happen to aviation in Scotland if the Scots really do go for independence from the UK in six months time?
As an independent nation Scotland would cease to be governed by the Air Navigation Order and all the other statutes that form the legislative basis for the control of aviation. I presume that means the UK CAA would lose it's jurisdiction North of the border and unless or until Scotland becomes a member of the EU so will EASA. So could Scotland become a lawless Wild West for its native pilots and aircraft owners?
In due course presumably they would start a Scottish CAA and also their own aircraft register (national prefix Mc-?), issue Tartan covered pilot licences, and conduct R/T tests in Gaelic, and if I can offer a word of practical advice stay well away from anything to do with EASA.
As an independent nation Scotland would cease to be governed by the Air Navigation Order and all the other statutes that form the legislative basis for the control of aviation. I presume that means the UK CAA would lose it's jurisdiction North of the border and unless or until Scotland becomes a member of the EU so will EASA. So could Scotland become a lawless Wild West for its native pilots and aircraft owners?
In due course presumably they would start a Scottish CAA and also their own aircraft register (national prefix Mc-?), issue Tartan covered pilot licences, and conduct R/T tests in Gaelic, and if I can offer a word of practical advice stay well away from anything to do with EASA.
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To be honest currently due to the differences in legal system it has the same basic rules as the rest of the UK but the CAA is pretty much bollockless up north for your private pilot currently.
The commercial operators will stay with a UK AoC through the CAA. The machines will all stay G reg because you can chop a quarter off there value if they are anything other than EASA reg and part of an EASA maintenance program.
Everyone's licenses are through the UK CAA so unless you change them to Scottish ones you still have to abide by the same rules.
G-reg you have to comply with the most restrictive rules of either the state of reg or the airspace. So again nothing changed.
So basically nothing will have changed even if Scotland does have its own ANO. It will be the same as Jersey and Guernsey. Who both have there own ANO but very few have a clue what it says.
Its not actually a small task, the GA side of things will be pretty simple.
Loganair is about the only fixed wing commercial.
The rotary side of things will be a bit of nightmare.
Anyway its not worth really discussing. We will just get one of the independence lot assigned to spout their pish on yet another thread.
Lets just wait and see what happens, its going to be a complete cluster
which ever way it goes.
The commercial operators will stay with a UK AoC through the CAA. The machines will all stay G reg because you can chop a quarter off there value if they are anything other than EASA reg and part of an EASA maintenance program.
Everyone's licenses are through the UK CAA so unless you change them to Scottish ones you still have to abide by the same rules.
G-reg you have to comply with the most restrictive rules of either the state of reg or the airspace. So again nothing changed.
So basically nothing will have changed even if Scotland does have its own ANO. It will be the same as Jersey and Guernsey. Who both have there own ANO but very few have a clue what it says.
Its not actually a small task, the GA side of things will be pretty simple.
Loganair is about the only fixed wing commercial.
The rotary side of things will be a bit of nightmare.
Anyway its not worth really discussing. We will just get one of the independence lot assigned to spout their pish on yet another thread.
Lets just wait and see what happens, its going to be a complete cluster
which ever way it goes.
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The Scottish Government white paper Scotland's Future will answer most of your questions.
But is is 700+ pages long, although available as a free download for one's Kindle.
To save you reading.....
In general, all UK law that currently applies to Scotland will continue to apply after independence.
Some laws in the UK are different: criminal juries in Scotland have 15 members, in England they only have 12, is an obvious example.
So, what does the White Paper say:
NATS - who run airspace control across the country will continue in place (no surprise there)
Commercial passenger stuff: halving of APD with aim of abolishing it. (UK govt seems to be now realising it is a good idea to cut UK APD too!)
Military: a squadron of Typhoons, stay in NATO, add a maritime recon capability (UK currently has nil capability!!). No mention of Air Cadets/UAS gliding and Grobs.
GA. All the regulation is EASA now. UK CAA is only a contractor to EASA so UK CAA will become/stay the contractor to EASA under the Scottish Government. So ATOs etc will still seek approval from UK(R) CAA. For interest, the Isle of Man EASA regulation is handled on EASA's behalf by the UK CAA. So that model will just be copied.
AAIB. UK AAIB will be the investigatory body for the Scottish nation. Actually, not quite sure why there isn't a EU body. Are there enough accidents to keep the UK people "up-to-speed?" Certainly not enough in Scotland, so you can see why there wouldn't be a Scottish AAIB.
Aircraft registration: no plans for a Scottish register (like IoM and Jersey/Guernsey etc) immediately after independence. Too many other things to attend to, I suspect! But if there is money to be made - and there certainly is in shipping - thn I am sure something will follow.
Finally, permit to fly, homebuilt and microlights. Nothing mentioned about them. Reckon, as said at the start, they will be covered by the old regs continuing. So to fly a G-REG in Scotland (or indeed UK-R) it will need to have a Permit to Fly from the UK-R CAA through the LAA or BMAA. The Scottish Government will regard a licence issued by the UK-R CAA as valid in Scotland and - just like people currently learn in France, Spain, USA etc - microlight schools in Scotland will operate the same way, training for the UK-R NPPL.
UK ANO will still apply, so 500ft rule etc.
All-in-all, seems fairly sensible and pragmatic, in my view.
But is is 700+ pages long, although available as a free download for one's Kindle.
To save you reading.....
In general, all UK law that currently applies to Scotland will continue to apply after independence.
Some laws in the UK are different: criminal juries in Scotland have 15 members, in England they only have 12, is an obvious example.
So, what does the White Paper say:
NATS - who run airspace control across the country will continue in place (no surprise there)
Commercial passenger stuff: halving of APD with aim of abolishing it. (UK govt seems to be now realising it is a good idea to cut UK APD too!)
Military: a squadron of Typhoons, stay in NATO, add a maritime recon capability (UK currently has nil capability!!). No mention of Air Cadets/UAS gliding and Grobs.
GA. All the regulation is EASA now. UK CAA is only a contractor to EASA so UK CAA will become/stay the contractor to EASA under the Scottish Government. So ATOs etc will still seek approval from UK(R) CAA. For interest, the Isle of Man EASA regulation is handled on EASA's behalf by the UK CAA. So that model will just be copied.
AAIB. UK AAIB will be the investigatory body for the Scottish nation. Actually, not quite sure why there isn't a EU body. Are there enough accidents to keep the UK people "up-to-speed?" Certainly not enough in Scotland, so you can see why there wouldn't be a Scottish AAIB.
Aircraft registration: no plans for a Scottish register (like IoM and Jersey/Guernsey etc) immediately after independence. Too many other things to attend to, I suspect! But if there is money to be made - and there certainly is in shipping - thn I am sure something will follow.
Finally, permit to fly, homebuilt and microlights. Nothing mentioned about them. Reckon, as said at the start, they will be covered by the old regs continuing. So to fly a G-REG in Scotland (or indeed UK-R) it will need to have a Permit to Fly from the UK-R CAA through the LAA or BMAA. The Scottish Government will regard a licence issued by the UK-R CAA as valid in Scotland and - just like people currently learn in France, Spain, USA etc - microlight schools in Scotland will operate the same way, training for the UK-R NPPL.
UK ANO will still apply, so 500ft rule etc.
All-in-all, seems fairly sensible and pragmatic, in my view.
Last edited by xrayalpha; 21st Mar 2014 at 13:18. Reason: removed last line - left in by accident after phone rang!
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That's is if they aren't told to go themselves. With no access allowed to the toys.
As I said as soon as this starts a discussion someone will be allocated to spout ****e about how its all going to work and its going to be great. And someone else will come in spouting ****e about how bad its going to all be.
For us pilots it will stay the same whatever happens. The CAA can't bring its own prosecutions and if you do get done you won't have to pay costs.
themselves. With no access allowed to the toys.
Lets just wait and see what happens, its going to be a complete cluster which ever way it goes
which ever way it goes
For us pilots it will stay the same whatever happens. The CAA can't bring its own prosecutions and if you do get done you won't have to pay costs.
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Flying School costs etc
Suggest you read the following recent correspondence..if you vote yes and leave the EU as stated would happen by senior EU officials
"The UK DfT has now spoken to EASA concerning the oversight of aviation activity in the Dependant Territories – specifically the Isle of Man and Channel Islands – and with particular regard to Flight Training and the approval of flying schools to EASA ATO status. It was suggested that such flying schools should be treated in the same manner as schools in mainland UK / Northern Ireland, such that the UK CAA would undertake oversight of these companies directly (and thus they would pay fees in accordance with the CAA Scheme of Charges). Our understanding is that the EASA response to DfT was to re-iterate that both the IoM and CI were not members of the EU and as such, legally, cannot be considered as coming under the oversight of the UK. EASA, it seems, did not feel there were any legal or operational grounds for them to change they stance that they had previously taken and have maintained that they will continue to consider both territories as ‘third countries’ (in the same manner as it does, for example, the USA, Canada, Australia etc).They re-iterated that all flying schools located in both territories must make application for ATO approval to Cologne, where they would come under direct oversight of EASA."
And the charges..."the Schools will have to pay fees in accordance with EASA’s scheme of charges"
"The hourly rate is EUR 225,00 plus inflation rate as mentioned in Table 1 of Part II and in Part V of the Annex to Commission Regulation (EC) 593/2007, as amended, (EASA - Fees and Charges Regulations)
The current indexed hourly rate (valid until 31.05.2014) is € 260,62"
To apply for ATO status the cost to pay EASA:
1. The cost of processing the ATO application – at an hourly rate of £218.88
2. Return travel costs to and from Cologne (with the added charge of £218.88 per hour travelling time!)
3. Accommodation costs – again with the added charge of £218.88 per hour for time spent at the hotel concerned!
4. The cost of all meals – with the added charge of £218.88 per hour for time eating the food!
5. The cost of any other related undisclosed expenses they incur – at £218.88 per hour
Perhaps be careful what you vote for!
"The UK DfT has now spoken to EASA concerning the oversight of aviation activity in the Dependant Territories – specifically the Isle of Man and Channel Islands – and with particular regard to Flight Training and the approval of flying schools to EASA ATO status. It was suggested that such flying schools should be treated in the same manner as schools in mainland UK / Northern Ireland, such that the UK CAA would undertake oversight of these companies directly (and thus they would pay fees in accordance with the CAA Scheme of Charges). Our understanding is that the EASA response to DfT was to re-iterate that both the IoM and CI were not members of the EU and as such, legally, cannot be considered as coming under the oversight of the UK. EASA, it seems, did not feel there were any legal or operational grounds for them to change they stance that they had previously taken and have maintained that they will continue to consider both territories as ‘third countries’ (in the same manner as it does, for example, the USA, Canada, Australia etc).They re-iterated that all flying schools located in both territories must make application for ATO approval to Cologne, where they would come under direct oversight of EASA."
And the charges..."the Schools will have to pay fees in accordance with EASA’s scheme of charges"
"The hourly rate is EUR 225,00 plus inflation rate as mentioned in Table 1 of Part II and in Part V of the Annex to Commission Regulation (EC) 593/2007, as amended, (EASA - Fees and Charges Regulations)
The current indexed hourly rate (valid until 31.05.2014) is € 260,62"
To apply for ATO status the cost to pay EASA:
1. The cost of processing the ATO application – at an hourly rate of £218.88
2. Return travel costs to and from Cologne (with the added charge of £218.88 per hour travelling time!)
3. Accommodation costs – again with the added charge of £218.88 per hour for time spent at the hotel concerned!
4. The cost of all meals – with the added charge of £218.88 per hour for time eating the food!
5. The cost of any other related undisclosed expenses they incur – at £218.88 per hour
Perhaps be careful what you vote for!
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I am Annexe 2!
(So maybe I should vote to make life harder for my Annexe 1 rivals!!)
Basically, what you wrote is what I was trying to say, based on what the CAA told me at an RTF to ATO transition meeting.
IoM has to deal with Cologne, legally.
But Cologne has sub-contracted the UK CAA to do the work.
(So maybe I should vote to make life harder for my Annexe 1 rivals!!)
Basically, what you wrote is what I was trying to say, based on what the CAA told me at an RTF to ATO transition meeting.
IoM has to deal with Cologne, legally.
But Cologne has sub-contracted the UK CAA to do the work.
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Scotland will be treated as a "third country" in much the same way as the crown dependencies by EASA. In short this will mean all the RTF will more than likely be put out of business, GA will be very restricted by having to submit GAR for flights outside of the scottish airspace again as the CD's have to do trust me I have a colleague who has spent many many hours trying to reason with EASA and it is like trying to talk to a stone table top, so do not be under the impression that anyone can negotiate themselves a position you can't !!!!!!
To quote Pat Malone, ‘ No nation in Europe (never mind those that aren't my add) can go against EASA. It’s hard to refute clams that it is a rotten organisation, overflowing with untouchable public servants bereft of knowledge and understanding, but possessed of a religious reverence for paperwork, pointless box-ticking and extortionate demands for cash’.
To quote Pat Malone, ‘ No nation in Europe (never mind those that aren't my add) can go against EASA. It’s hard to refute clams that it is a rotten organisation, overflowing with untouchable public servants bereft of knowledge and understanding, but possessed of a religious reverence for paperwork, pointless box-ticking and extortionate demands for cash’.
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BB,
As Annexe 2 (microlight) we are free from:
ATO to be a flying school.
CPL to charge for lessons (although LAPL would be possible)
No C of A for the aircraft
100ll
All things that, I feel, give modern Eurostar and C42 microlights an advantage - for leisure pilots - over Annexe 1.
As Annexe 2 (microlight) we are free from:
ATO to be a flying school.
CPL to charge for lessons (although LAPL would be possible)
No C of A for the aircraft
100ll
All things that, I feel, give modern Eurostar and C42 microlights an advantage - for leisure pilots - over Annexe 1.
