EASA Enroute-IR minimum ceiling?
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I think Pace, we need to give credit, where credit is due.
Does anyone actually do what you suggest? No one knows, because just as drivers run red lights, whilst it is illegal, until cameras, no one knew how many had done it.
Same with busting minima, flouting Imcr priveleges, flouting IR priveleges, no one knows. Stats could tell us, but the UK stats on loss of control in IMC, tend not to tell us how many pilots actually went out and deliberately, flew, illegally.
I have some faith, still
, that pilots who go out, spend money, add ratings, take recurrent, are looking to improve safety, not denigrate it. Not all are suicide jockeys.
There was a sad one in the States last week. A Cessna 210, lost control on intercepting the localiser. The live ATC link is below. Experienced pilot, yes reasonably poor conditions, a moments inattention, with disasterous consequences. I would like to think that all pilots take to the air in IMC, fully understanding the dangers and limitations.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2014-0400Z.mp3
The question with that is whether this was envisaged by the regulators or advisable considering that a low time IMCR pilot could theoretically take off from say Bournemouth into a 200 foot cloudbase fly airways to Aberdeen and land with a 200 foot cloudbase all the while relying on his autopilot to hold up!
Same with busting minima, flouting Imcr priveleges, flouting IR priveleges, no one knows. Stats could tell us, but the UK stats on loss of control in IMC, tend not to tell us how many pilots actually went out and deliberately, flew, illegally.
I have some faith, still
, that pilots who go out, spend money, add ratings, take recurrent, are looking to improve safety, not denigrate it. Not all are suicide jockeys.There was a sad one in the States last week. A Cessna 210, lost control on intercepting the localiser. The live ATC link is below. Experienced pilot, yes reasonably poor conditions, a moments inattention, with disasterous consequences. I would like to think that all pilots take to the air in IMC, fully understanding the dangers and limitations.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2014-0400Z.mp3
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Maxred
You mentioned my opposal to flying SEP over long stretches of water and at night. Also my own hard IMC with a IMCR! Correct but in that time I have lost 7 friends in GA accidents some far better pilots than I am so looking back at some of the close calls someone has been looking after me.
Others may not be so lucky!
You say that pilots fly within their limits?
I am not so sure! I was quite horrified reading the chute pull accident statistics in a certain plane.
Some were crazy! Things like stalls and failure to recover while on autopilot
Radio failure resulting in a chute pull.
Frozen Pitot with loss of apparent speed.
Loss of control on a simple missed approach etc etc etc.
While I am not blaming the above on IMCR I do feel that pilots wanting to fly IMC especially airways have to display an accuracy of hand flying while dealing with nav radios and failures to a level exceeding the IMCR.
When I renew my type rating we are heavely loaded with multiple failures to see what we can deal with and when we freeze becoming brain dead.
That is the biggest killer of all! overload !!! and that varies considerably by your makeup, experience levels and currency.
MaxRed you sound like a pretty experienced capable pilot who would take a lot of loading before loosing the plot but PPLs vary a lot even ones with an IMCR.
Flying is easy when everything is going right and the autopilot does the work for you VFR or IFR but its when things go wrong that in IMC the problem becomes 10 times worse than if you are visual so you better be on top of the game and more!
Most know their limits and safely fly within them some fly within them but then inadvertantly get into weather situations they cannot deal with (very easy when you cannot see where you are going or misread weather and icing)
I have been there in the past and been very lucky. If that arrogance??? I hope not. Your comments bothered me a lot because I do have a posting style aimed to encourage discussion and argument not because I particularly think I am right or wrong. So yes a bit of stirring
We all have a lot to learn and I have met pilots who make me as a jet Captain feel inferior at their depth of inticate knowledge and ability. Yes a lot was SEP and mostly MEP in very inhospitable areas, winter summer night and day. Some in **** weather !I am still here so I must be doing something right? Not sure what
Pace
You mentioned my opposal to flying SEP over long stretches of water and at night. Also my own hard IMC with a IMCR! Correct but in that time I have lost 7 friends in GA accidents some far better pilots than I am so looking back at some of the close calls someone has been looking after me.
Others may not be so lucky!
You say that pilots fly within their limits?
I am not so sure! I was quite horrified reading the chute pull accident statistics in a certain plane.
Some were crazy! Things like stalls and failure to recover while on autopilot
Radio failure resulting in a chute pull.
Frozen Pitot with loss of apparent speed.
Loss of control on a simple missed approach etc etc etc.
While I am not blaming the above on IMCR I do feel that pilots wanting to fly IMC especially airways have to display an accuracy of hand flying while dealing with nav radios and failures to a level exceeding the IMCR.
When I renew my type rating we are heavely loaded with multiple failures to see what we can deal with and when we freeze becoming brain dead.
That is the biggest killer of all! overload !!! and that varies considerably by your makeup, experience levels and currency.
MaxRed you sound like a pretty experienced capable pilot who would take a lot of loading before loosing the plot but PPLs vary a lot even ones with an IMCR.
Flying is easy when everything is going right and the autopilot does the work for you VFR or IFR but its when things go wrong that in IMC the problem becomes 10 times worse than if you are visual so you better be on top of the game and more!
Most know their limits and safely fly within them some fly within them but then inadvertantly get into weather situations they cannot deal with (very easy when you cannot see where you are going or misread weather and icing)
I have been there in the past and been very lucky. If that arrogance??? I hope not. Your comments bothered me a lot because I do have a posting style aimed to encourage discussion and argument not because I particularly think I am right or wrong. So yes a bit of stirring
We all have a lot to learn and I have met pilots who make me as a jet Captain feel inferior at their depth of inticate knowledge and ability. Yes a lot was SEP and mostly MEP in very inhospitable areas, winter summer night and day. Some in **** weather !I am still here so I must be doing something right? Not sure what
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th Mar 2014 at 19:36.
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IMO if you fly IFR and airways you have to be able to fly instruments with the precision and tolerances required in the JAA and FAA instrument ratings! Do that and you are fit to fly IFR /airways whether you are a PPL or CPL but there has to be a challenging flight test which will load you to make sure you can handle the worst / I never had the impression that the IMCR quite made that standard ?
I also doubt the JAA flight test in particular tests your ability to cope under real world pressure - it might teach you to cope under exam pressure, a rather different think. The FAA flight test possibly does a much better job.
The evidence is IMC rated pilots do a pretty good job of coping with the conditions they need. The easy bit is the en route bit so combining the two is unlikely to alter the stats, in fact it might make them better because it just plain stupid to be forced to sit in the weather which is so often the consequence of the way the IMCr is currently framed.
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Fuji
I can remember on one type rating renewal for fun I was flying an approach! In the approach to an ILS engine fire! One engine instrument approach, then bad turbulence, Then autopilot and FD Failure.
On the ILS the cloud was at minima for the ILS.
Halfway down FOG!
Ok checked fuel divert
" Now check fuel" I was told 300 ibs per side no fuel to go anywhere but land.
Completed a hand flown ILS on one engine to land in zero zero conditions.
OK this was a fun challenge at the end of a session but???
Its not so much about flying to IR tolerances but having the mental capacity to pick up your game as needs be and not freeze like a zombie
As stated things do fail! engines, autopilots smoke in cabin (Yes had that too at night) Its easy to fly an all working plane with a Christmas tree display and fantastic autopilot its when things go wrong in IMC that we are seriously challenged as those problems do become 10 times worse.
I right seated a pilot once who had panic attacks in cloud yet held an IMCR
But maybe I am wrong
Pace
I can remember on one type rating renewal for fun I was flying an approach! In the approach to an ILS engine fire! One engine instrument approach, then bad turbulence, Then autopilot and FD Failure.
On the ILS the cloud was at minima for the ILS.
Halfway down FOG!
Ok checked fuel divert
" Now check fuel" I was told 300 ibs per side no fuel to go anywhere but land.
Completed a hand flown ILS on one engine to land in zero zero conditions.
OK this was a fun challenge at the end of a session but???
Its not so much about flying to IR tolerances but having the mental capacity to pick up your game as needs be and not freeze like a zombie
As stated things do fail! engines, autopilots smoke in cabin (Yes had that too at night) Its easy to fly an all working plane with a Christmas tree display and fantastic autopilot its when things go wrong in IMC that we are seriously challenged as those problems do become 10 times worse.
I right seated a pilot once who had panic attacks in cloud yet held an IMCR
But maybe I am wrong
Pace
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Thanks Pace. My apologies this time, I did not intend to bother you, and I appreciate your obvious experience, it was the Mickey Mouse thing that got me, and you have apologized for that.
The incidents you mentioned were, in the main, the Cirrus activities, and thread upon thread, has been written about that. My view is that there are differing circumstances at play in those scenarios, most of which have been covered.
One point though, I meant that pilots with a specific Imcr rating, would appear to fly within their limits. Pilots with a full IR, that may be a different story, and I will spend some time trying to bolster my thoughts with stats, if that is possible.
I also have learnt that prior to posting, wash the bottle of wine out the system
The incidents you mentioned were, in the main, the Cirrus activities, and thread upon thread, has been written about that. My view is that there are differing circumstances at play in those scenarios, most of which have been covered.
One point though, I meant that pilots with a specific Imcr rating, would appear to fly within their limits. Pilots with a full IR, that may be a different story, and I will spend some time trying to bolster my thoughts with stats, if that is possible.
I also have learnt that prior to posting, wash the bottle of wine out the system
Just picking up on one particular point that Pace made. I'd done virtually no flight in real cloud prior to flying for real in cloud, on my own. I found it quite a disturbing experience at first. I am guessing that new IR holders may well hit the same. Presumably however professional licence holders have no choice but to get through that but perhaps many PPLs chicken out, hence leading to the often used (but still inappropriate) "get out of gaol" line ?
G
G
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Pace
Exactly - maybe too much time spent on flying to tolerance and more needed spent on coping with situations - the trouble is the first is easy to test, the second much harder. Sim time goes a long way to achieve the second but doesnt work for most light aircraft.
Real world experience comes from doing, so I suspect your rating needs to get you to a point where you are essentially safe but realise you don't yet have the experience.
There is no perfect model, but I dont think there is any evidence that an IMCr combined with an EIR will create problems which seems to be the substance of this thread. After all I think we agree the en route part is the easier part and IMCr holders have been doing the other part for a long time without evidence of shortcomings.
Exactly - maybe too much time spent on flying to tolerance and more needed spent on coping with situations - the trouble is the first is easy to test, the second much harder. Sim time goes a long way to achieve the second but doesnt work for most light aircraft.
Real world experience comes from doing, so I suspect your rating needs to get you to a point where you are essentially safe but realise you don't yet have the experience.
There is no perfect model, but I dont think there is any evidence that an IMCr combined with an EIR will create problems which seems to be the substance of this thread. After all I think we agree the en route part is the easier part and IMCr holders have been doing the other part for a long time without evidence of shortcomings.
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Fuji
If I am honest you are correct infact the experienced IMCR pilot will be safer flying the enroute sector airways basically because it is a much more safe supervised and controlled invironment than stooging around in the rubbish below.
One downside especially in piston singles is icing at many times of the year climbing and cruising at airway levels.
So I do not disagree with what you are saying! We then come back to who is likely to be flying IFR departures enroute and approaches in IMC.
Hopefully the more experienced and current IMCR pilots.
I also take your point looking back at my own development that it is experience, self learnt by being in situations which stretch your abilities and which you survive.
A lot is becoming so comfortable flying instruments that you can do it while thinking about something completely non aviation related as well as literally operating the aircraft instinctively without a check list.
That then frees the mind to deal with more demanding unknowns if they occur.
the fact is we will have to deal with EASA in future and sadly the IMCR does not exist in EASA land and an IR should be good start and finish of your flight whether thats in the UK or Spain
Fuji you soon get shouted at flying airways if you dont
Pace
If I am honest you are correct infact the experienced IMCR pilot will be safer flying the enroute sector airways basically because it is a much more safe supervised and controlled invironment than stooging around in the rubbish below.
One downside especially in piston singles is icing at many times of the year climbing and cruising at airway levels.
So I do not disagree with what you are saying! We then come back to who is likely to be flying IFR departures enroute and approaches in IMC.
Hopefully the more experienced and current IMCR pilots.
I also take your point looking back at my own development that it is experience, self learnt by being in situations which stretch your abilities and which you survive.
A lot is becoming so comfortable flying instruments that you can do it while thinking about something completely non aviation related as well as literally operating the aircraft instinctively without a check list.
That then frees the mind to deal with more demanding unknowns if they occur.
the fact is we will have to deal with EASA in future and sadly the IMCR does not exist in EASA land and an IR should be good start and finish of your flight whether thats in the UK or Spain
Actually do you need to fly to that precision and tolerance.
Pace
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What is the difference between the UK IMC rating and the UK (or EASA) IR rating when it comes to the practical and theoretical syllabus as well as flight standards?
I got my PPL/IR in Sweden in the 1980's. At that time the UK IR rating had a reputation for being extremely hard to get. At least that was the impression you got from reading Pilot magazine. (But of course that was before JAA made it hard in Sweden as well.)
I have flown IFR several times in UK controlled airspace (including London TMA) and didn't find that any different from controlled airspace in other countries.
(Well, apart from the strict segregation of controlled and uncontrolled airspace with things like "airway joining clearances" which I've always thought was rather odd, but that's another story.)
So what's the big deal?
I got my PPL/IR in Sweden in the 1980's. At that time the UK IR rating had a reputation for being extremely hard to get. At least that was the impression you got from reading Pilot magazine.
(But of course that was before JAA made it hard in Sweden as well.)I have flown IFR several times in UK controlled airspace (including London TMA) and didn't find that any different from controlled airspace in other countries.
(Well, apart from the strict segregation of controlled and uncontrolled airspace with things like "airway joining clearances" which I've always thought was rather odd, but that's another story.)
So what's the big deal?
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The hardest part is after your licence or rating
I remember when I passed my driving test. I then proceeded to drive badly for some time before experience helped me deal with situations. That is exactly the same in a plane. I did my PPL many years ago and flew badly for some time. I was probably a serious hazard to myself but gradually I have become better at flying which has given me more time to spend making good decisions.
I have an MM rating, sorry I meant IRR rating on my new EASA licence and I use it to fly my Bonanza in cloud to get to destinations. I have also done some real instrument approaches into various airfields. I genuinely believe I am gradually getting better at that too with more experience but I dont take it lightly. I dont fly so much instrument flight that I can get loads of practice but I certainly see it as a viable part of my flying, not a get out of jail rating.
I for one cant wait for the EIR and yes it will give me some pretty cool extra privileges which I dont have now with a bit more training but I think I can cope with it. IN FACT I have also flown some instrument flights with a IR rated pilot in both my Bonanza, a twin and two different jets and it is ridiculous to suggest that you need some super powers to do that. Try bouncing around in cloud at 4,000ft under an airway to get to your destination while instrument rated pilots are getting full guidance at 10,000ft. Its so easy flying with a full IR instead of an IMC rating. I accept there may be many challenges for more serious IR flying but for me switching my Disney rating to an EIR would make my flights considerably safer and considerably easier. They would still be the same flights.
For reference I never ever would consider approaching on an ILS down to 200ft. I value my family and kids and myself too much. I guess that applies to just about every IMC rated pilot and thats why they dont crash often. I agree with the comments above that it is B.S. that every IMC rated pilot will be crashing into airliners and those superb IR pilots in their Cessna 152's in an airway.
I think the current airspace is outrageous. Pilots with PPL's and IMC have to spend their lives dodging around airspace reserved for IR pilots!
Does anyone know when the EIR will be law. I want one.
I have an MM rating, sorry I meant IRR rating on my new EASA licence and I use it to fly my Bonanza in cloud to get to destinations. I have also done some real instrument approaches into various airfields. I genuinely believe I am gradually getting better at that too with more experience but I dont take it lightly. I dont fly so much instrument flight that I can get loads of practice but I certainly see it as a viable part of my flying, not a get out of jail rating.
I for one cant wait for the EIR and yes it will give me some pretty cool extra privileges which I dont have now with a bit more training but I think I can cope with it. IN FACT I have also flown some instrument flights with a IR rated pilot in both my Bonanza, a twin and two different jets and it is ridiculous to suggest that you need some super powers to do that. Try bouncing around in cloud at 4,000ft under an airway to get to your destination while instrument rated pilots are getting full guidance at 10,000ft. Its so easy flying with a full IR instead of an IMC rating. I accept there may be many challenges for more serious IR flying but for me switching my Disney rating to an EIR would make my flights considerably safer and considerably easier. They would still be the same flights.
For reference I never ever would consider approaching on an ILS down to 200ft. I value my family and kids and myself too much. I guess that applies to just about every IMC rated pilot and thats why they dont crash often. I agree with the comments above that it is B.S. that every IMC rated pilot will be crashing into airliners and those superb IR pilots in their Cessna 152's in an airway.
I think the current airspace is outrageous. Pilots with PPL's and IMC have to spend their lives dodging around airspace reserved for IR pilots!
Does anyone know when the EIR will be law. I want one.
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Another Mickey Mouse on the block!
Hi Everyone,
As I type this, I anxiously await a courier with an envelope from Disneyland, containing a freshly printed page with the MM rating on it. Glad I did it. And I also plan to get my teeth into EIR as soon as it's offered.
Some confusion here, and not helped by an earlier post by Pace about an IR(R) maverick taking off and landing in 200ft cloud base. Well, isn't the overriding IMCr/IR(R) minimum = 500ft for a precision approach? Not mentioning the 1,000+ ft cloud base recommended for taking off.
Happy landings within your personal minima, everyone
/h88
As I type this, I anxiously await a courier with an envelope from Disneyland, containing a freshly printed page with the MM rating on it. Glad I did it. And I also plan to get my teeth into EIR as soon as it's offered.
For reference I never ever would consider approaching on an ILS down to 200ft.
Happy landings within your personal minima, everyone
/h88
Well, isn't the overriding IMCr/IR(R) minimum = 500ft for a precision approach?
MJ
Why what happens in three and a half hours. Have I missed something.
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Does anyone know in simple terms what this means if it comes into force today?
To get an EIR from scratch, you'll have to wait for an ATO to get approval for an EIR course.
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What, so thats it? The legislation is in force now? Is that correct. I had no idea. You would think that training organisations would be looking at this as an opportunity and advertising the fact.
If indeed that is correct I would hope someone would be offering the courses soon. I would love to do it.
If indeed that is correct I would hope someone would be offering the courses soon. I would love to do it.
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The legislation is in force now? Is that correct.
It is possible that national authorities have the right to delay implementation. That was the case when part-FCL was introduced, but I can't find any such provision in this amendment. Of course, I may not have looked carefully enough.
You would think that training organisations would be looking at this as an opportunity and advertising the fact.