Wing down during final approach.

[Johnm]

Flying our Trinidad on ILS to minima is much easier crabbing, indeed the autopilot won't do anything else! However I tend to disconnect the autopilot and transition to wing down once I've passed DA, got the lights and I'm sure I'm going to land, especially in very gusty conditions. So I guess I do the last 50 to 100 ft in that configuration and feel more comfortable with the aircraft stable and the nose on the centre line.

[Heston]

I'll come out of the closet too I always fly crabbed approaches and I teach them too.


Yes there is a moment while you're kicking it straight that the wind can get under the wing if you don't use some aileron input, but overall I find its more intuitive and easier to understand what's going on for the student.


I learnt to fly in sailplanes - their big wings make the wing down approach a bit hairy close to the ground.


Is it a macho thing? "Real pilots use side slipping". Personally I just do what works for me.

[Pace]

I fly a straight winged citation so hardly a big aeroplane and have never known anyone slip anything but singles.

I feel that with the Crab you have a better feel of the winds which will change in direction and strength down the approach as well as with gusts.

Everyone above a light single crabs so why use a method which is so limited
all to their own what works for you.

pace

[mad_jock]

They don't actually PACe a lot of BAe 146 drivers used to do wing down and also other high wing commercial types.

I am firmly in the camp of I don't care as long as it works for the pilot airframe limitations outstanding.

[Pace]

MJ

I Bow to your superior knowledge I never knew that!

One point brought up is changing methods part way down. A stable approach is in my books very important. Changing methods would not be conducive to a stable approach so probably better to stick with one or the other?

Pace

[Johnm]

If you crab you have no choice but to change at some point as the nose has to line up with centre line before touch down otherwise a lot of excitement ensues

[Pace]

If you crab you have no choice but to change at some point as the nose has to line up with centre line before touch down otherwise a lot of excitement ensues

John

obviously unless you want to land sideways but nothing is static in the air we fly in or rarely
This is about pilot skills and judgement all the way to touchdown and beyond in the rollout to full stop! In strong crosswinds and turbulence, up and down draughts you are still using those skills.
What if an up draft lifts the aircraft on touchdown and you are back in the air in a strong crosswind do you slip again maybe a number of times

It would worry me if methods were used to substitute for strong handling skills

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'm with Chuck. I, too, started to fly in gliders and whether that's influenced me, I don't know. I just have never seen the point of cross-controlling down final every time there's a x-wind element (so most times, then) when one can fly the aeroplane far more 'naturally' by simply taking up a heading which results in the correct track along final approach. Kicking off the drift and transitioning into wing-low for the last few feet does take skill and practice to get right, but seems a far more natural way to do it.

The exception is a deliberate slipping approach (sometimes a slipping final turn) done with full rudder with track held with aileron in, say, the L4 Cub (no flaps) to increase the ROD on final.

[PPRuNe Towers]

It's the one that suits you, makes sense, comes more naturally for whatever type of aircraft.

I do wonder whether how much is dogma - the way you were initially trained forming a strong bias towards one method over others.

Guidance is not a strong point in light aircraft POH's but the Boeing flight crew training manual discusses three main and approved methods - all three of which have been mentioned at some point in this thread. Some airlines give a standardised preference for Chuck's favoured method but that does look a bit weak during an autoland on, say, a 757 when Boeing's autopilot system happily puts you in a slip late in the approach.

Personally I use the seat belt method.

I get my belly on the center line and manipulate the controls in any way needed to ensure my paunch remains on that extended line.

The seat belt ensures the rest of the aircraft follows.

Wing down or crab - it works every time

Rob

[FANS]

At the typical 15knts x-wind, the crab will work fine.

I think the problem comes when people start landing their SEP in double that plus a gust factor whereby kicking it out can all too easily be mistimed.

[glendalegoon]

wondering:

what does the NONCRAB crowd do when the crosswind component aloft, on final, exceeds the control capability.

as an illustrative example. 50 knot direct crosswind at 2000' and you are on a long final? Wind at surface reported within max demonstrated x wind.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Or to bring it full circle to the OP, if it's logical to fly a 5 mile approach 'wing down', why isn't it logical to fly x-country for hundreds of miles 'wing down' to make ones heading the same as one's track?

Of course it'd be most illogical to do that; uncomfortable and inefficient. So why would it suddenly become logical to do it on a long final approach?

[Steve6443]

(and glideslope is pitch, not power)

At the risk of starting another "Stick and Rudder" thread, I have to ask what you mean by "glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?

I'm not an IFR pilot but am fortunate to have a large under-utilised "international" airport in the vicinity who are open enough to have spam cans practising ILS approaches without the associated fees so have occasionally taken some foggles to practice an ILS approach - "just in case".

In my experience, it's exactly the opposite - glide slope is power, not pitch: I say this because I'll adjust the pitch (and trim) for my approach speed and then look to follow the glide slope using power..... I find if I'm too high on the slope and lower my pitch, I gain speed. If I'm low and increase my pitch, I lose speed.....

[PA28181]

Quote, ""glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?"

Isn't that for "Thrust Levers" & Turbine/jet acrft?

[BroomstickPilot]

Cross wind landings

Hi Chuck,

I was taught to fly in 1960 on an Auster J1 Autocrat (taildragger) by an ex WWII bomber pilot (Wellingtons). He insisted that I must be able to use both methods equally well, so that I would be in a position to choose which method I preferred to use for any given cross-wind landing depending on the aircraft concerned and the conditions.

At that time, it seemed logical to me that if I was flying a high wing aeroplane, then either method could be used, but if flying a low wing aeroplane, (especially one with a big wing span and a short under carriage relative to span) crabbing would be essential.

When I returned to flying in 2005 after a break of 40 years the only method I recall being taught was the wing down method. And once I returned to flying taildraggers this was combined with the (in my view) grossly inadequate two point landing; (OK for light to moderate crosswinds ONLY). I asked to revise wheeler landings, but this request was brushed off.

In the latter years before giving up in 2008, I tended to use the wing down method all the time, partly because I was flying a Texas Taildragger and considered it safe for that aircraft and partly because my flying was sufficiently infrequent to make me fear that lack of currency would result in my misjudging the crabbing method either by using too much/too little rudder or by applying it too high off the runway.

Regards,

BP.

[Pace]

"glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?"

PA28

Here we go again Neither is right neither is wrong!!!

The less powerful the aircraft, the more draggy the aircraft, the less experienced the pilot, the more pitch for speed is important.
You have two engines on a SEP The conventional one operated by the throttle and the potential energy one in the airframe operated by the column!
both are sources of energy so think energy management not that rubbish of pitch for speed or power for speed.
Not rubbish where a student is taught to pitch to keep away from stalling in a high drag low powered aircraft but not the whole picture or truth.

Pace

[glendalegoon]

my memory of ''stick and rudder'' does offer that the author has a one sentence blurb somewhere about power/pitch etc. paraphrasing, this is not for the ultra precise instrument flying where minor changes are concerned.

while this is not an exact quote, the meaning should be obvious that one can use pitch for tiny changes, but in the end, if you don't have enough power, you cannot pitch into anything but a stall

[Pace]

Glenda

In a glider on a still no lift day there is no engine other than the one available in the potential energy available in the airframe ! You can only pitch for that energy! If you do not pitch you WILL Stall
Add an engine to that glider and you now have two energy sources!
Tap into one, the other. Or both as part of your energy management

Pace

[foxmoth]

What if an up draft lifts the aircraft on touchdown and you are back in the air in a strong crosswind do you slip again maybe a number of times

That shows you do not understand the method - you KEEP the wing down until the other wheel settles of its own accord, if you get the updraft you have already got the drift compensated for - with crab, if an updraft lifts the aircraft you are then drifting sideways and either into an uncomfortable landing that does the aircraft no good or (preferably), a go around!

[Pace]

Foxmouth

I disagree !!! You are presuming a constant which is rarely the case in strong crosswinds with gusts up draughts or down draughts !
You will have to play both to suit not just hold.the slip you had on the first touch
Also consider with crossed controls you will be carrying more drag than an aircraft in a crab! Do you really want that in strong winds?

Pace