Flying a Piper Archer into Clacton
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Flying a Piper Archer into Clacton
Hello everyone,
I thought I'd turn here for some advice. I am planning a trip to Clacton in a few days time in a much-below-MTOW Archer II. During my training (on a Warrior) I heard in my club legendary stories about "people having problems landing" at Clacton due to a short-ish runway, which is making me a bit apprehensive. On one hand it is simple - do W&B and performance calcs before setting off, if LDA < landing distance required, abort the plan. LDA seems to be sufficient, but due to the said legends I decided to ask here: is there anything special about Clacton that makes it a difficult place to land a PA28? Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks,
H88
I thought I'd turn here for some advice. I am planning a trip to Clacton in a few days time in a much-below-MTOW Archer II. During my training (on a Warrior) I heard in my club legendary stories about "people having problems landing" at Clacton due to a short-ish runway, which is making me a bit apprehensive. On one hand it is simple - do W&B and performance calcs before setting off, if LDA < landing distance required, abort the plan. LDA seems to be sufficient, but due to the said legends I decided to ask here: is there anything special about Clacton that makes it a difficult place to land a PA28? Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks,
H88
TORA 600m +/- 10, LDA 500m / 540m
Not a problem to get a PA28-161 Warrior in and out, 2-up, > 1/2 tanks. I know 'cos I have done so a few times!
How much more runway does the Archer II need?
Things to note are the displaced thresholds, and the public footpath right-of-way across the middle of the runway (pedestrians have priority, btw). Oh, and it's a grass runway.
FBW
Not a problem to get a PA28-161 Warrior in and out, 2-up, > 1/2 tanks. I know 'cos I have done so a few times!
How much more runway does the Archer II need?
Things to note are the displaced thresholds, and the public footpath right-of-way across the middle of the runway (pedestrians have priority, btw). Oh, and it's a grass runway.
FBW
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It's all about using the correct technique and speed.
Rather than try a short runway, why not try landing using short field technique and speeds on a long runway and making sure that you are happy that you do land (and take off) consistently in the distance that will be available to you?
You'll also have to factor in any obstructions that might be at the shorter destination.
Rather than try a short runway, why not try landing using short field technique and speeds on a long runway and making sure that you are happy that you do land (and take off) consistently in the distance that will be available to you?
You'll also have to factor in any obstructions that might be at the shorter destination.
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You can follow advice from a forum, much of which is probably quite sound.
Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.
If it all goes wrong on the day and you end up in discussion with your insurance company, one of the above will assist your claim.
Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.
If it all goes wrong on the day and you end up in discussion with your insurance company, one of the above will assist your claim.
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Here ya go,
http://www.glasscockpitaviation.com/...28-181-POH.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL07.pdf
Bear in mind the POH is for a new aircraft, I would assume there is a bit degradation in performance of a club/rental machine with mid-time engine and prop with a few dings on it.
http://www.glasscockpitaviation.com/...28-181-POH.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL07.pdf
Bear in mind the POH is for a new aircraft, I would assume there is a bit degradation in performance of a club/rental machine with mid-time engine and prop with a few dings on it.
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Look at your POH and apply the safety factors as Jolly rog said. I often visit an airfield with a similar length runway and get a PA28-161 off in about half the length. Getting it in is easy (obviously given the right techniques), it's getting it out where you need to sweat the numbers.
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Getting it in is easy (obviously given the right techniques), it's getting it out where you need to sweat the numbers.
My assumption is that it's the other way round - start from the end of the runway and the aircraft will take off within book plus fudge factors, no problem. Because starting (a) at the end of the runway (b) at zero height (c) at zero speed is easy to organise.
Landing, on the other hand, you're going to touch down somewhere or other, at some speed or other, given that in the real world one can only do one's best at approximating "the right techniques".
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Gertrude, that's why the CAA safety factor for take-off is only 25%, while the factor for landing is 43%. The approach introduces some additional variability which you don't have on take-off: Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.
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No problem, I have been there in a Piper Archer a few times with 2 of us and full tanks - 1 hour of fuel. The only issue I had was literally getting the wheels stuck in the mud. However we were advised it was soggy and offered parking the other side of the airfield, and we foolishly declined. I started up, programmed up the GPS's and all the rest, tried to move away and nothing. We shut down, and somehow rocked the aircraft out of it's little trenches we had just made. If you're concerned about the take off, do a short / soft field take-off to give you a bit more clearance.
Nice airfield. Sometimes not all that easy to find, but if you cut through the housing estate, its only 5 mins walk to the beach.
Nice airfield. Sometimes not all that easy to find, but if you cut through the housing estate, its only 5 mins walk to the beach.
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Gertrude, that's why the CAA safety factor for take-off is only 25%, while the factor for landing is 43%. The approach introduces some additional variability which you don't have on take-off: Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.
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Thank you for all the replies
My assumption is that it's the other way round - start from the end of the runway and the aircraft will take off within book plus fudge factors, no problem. Because starting (a) at the end of the runway (b) at zero height (c) at zero speed is easy to organise.
You can follow advice from a forum, much of which is probably quite sound.
Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.
Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.
With the CAA safety margin it is marginally OK, i.e. the result will depend on temperature and headwind on the day. What I thought of getting out from here was any additional risk factors specific to Clacton - which I now know to be the path in the middle and obstacles around.Thank you all,
/h88
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The footpath is a non event. Pedestrians will usually see/hear you coming and usually standby to watch the movements, so do not worry about running anybody over. You can see the footpath in the middle of the runway here.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...NxgpJY7QP-ywQQ
You cannot afford for any floaters into Clacton or any short strip for that matter. The art here is to come in with bags of power just behind the drag curve, so when you pull the throttle over the numbers, a nice positive touchdown is near immediate.
Another tip, obviously dependent on winds/runway in use. If using 18. At the top is the engine runup area. Along the boundary is a hedge. From the runup area I taxi hard up alongside the hedge and as I turn onto runway heading immediately open the throttles without stopping. 3 or 4 knots start is better than a standing start.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...NxgpJY7QP-ywQQ
You cannot afford for any floaters into Clacton or any short strip for that matter. The art here is to come in with bags of power just behind the drag curve, so when you pull the throttle over the numbers, a nice positive touchdown is near immediate.
Another tip, obviously dependent on winds/runway in use. If using 18. At the top is the engine runup area. Along the boundary is a hedge. From the runup area I taxi hard up alongside the hedge and as I turn onto runway heading immediately open the throttles without stopping. 3 or 4 knots start is better than a standing start.
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Some years ago I acted as safety pilot for a member from a certain club in Blackpool with his Seneca, got into Clacton no prob with me giving him a few hints - I then left and then the "Boss" went down with him, apparently got high (as happened with me, but I talked him down OK), "Boss" took over and had to ground loop at the end to avoid the hedge - very satisfying as he had been boasting in the bar about how much better HE was at short field landings!
The lesson here is that, if the figures are OK and you use the correct technique, it should be no problem. Get either wrong and it can be a problem?
The lesson here is that, if the figures are OK and you use the correct technique, it should be no problem. Get either wrong and it can be a problem?
Last edited by foxmoth; 1st Sep 2013 at 12:26.
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Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.
Twice of the four attempts I'd stopped by 250m, the other twice I needed the 360m. But I knew early on that those two were lousy and could have gone around if I'd needed to.
On take-off I was well into the air by 250m.
Clacton next I think!
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I'm with englishal on this one...
Regardless of the why's and how's of the CAA 'safety margins', generally TODR is greater than LDR. And in a balked landing situation, you have a bit of kinetic energy/altitude/no rolling friction to help you out with full power. Whereas the decision to reject a takeoff from a shortish grass strip must be taken at a point that becomes an exponentially increasing fine line in a very short space of time.
I've landed within 200m. in strips that, on the same day, in the same aircraft, require nearly 500m to 50 ft!
Regardless of the why's and how's of the CAA 'safety margins', generally TODR is greater than LDR. And in a balked landing situation, you have a bit of kinetic energy/altitude/no rolling friction to help you out with full power. Whereas the decision to reject a takeoff from a shortish grass strip must be taken at a point that becomes an exponentially increasing fine line in a very short space of time.
I've landed within 200m. in strips that, on the same day, in the same aircraft, require nearly 500m to 50 ft!