Plane crash Caernarfon
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Plane crash Caernarfon
I'm a instructor at Liverpool, heard them on freq getting a basic service and routing around the airspace. At Liverpool on the day, it was really calm early on, winds picked up a little in the afternoon. No idea what could of happened and wouldn't like to make a guess until report comes out. But does make you think how carful we have to be as pilots, go around if your even little un stable and up to us instructors to get across how important safety is from very early on.
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What time of day did this happen? Was there a problem with low sun and a grazed windshield?
Haven't noticed anyone bring this question up yet, so apologies if it's already been discussed.
Haven't noticed anyone bring this question up yet, so apologies if it's already been discussed.
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Re: G-BBBK
As the mother of the 26yr old who lost his life flying the above plane in Feb 2007 my heart goes out to the relatives and friends of yesterdays accident in North Wales.
Todays news has brought it all back to me and I am not surprised that Blackpool Airport is yet again highlighted.
I can only hope and pray that this never happens again.
Todays news has brought it all back to me and I am not surprised that Blackpool Airport is yet again highlighted.
I can only hope and pray that this never happens again.
Jeez Guys,
Approach to RW26 at Caernarfon not difficult - fact.
Aircraft crashed on approach - fact.
Everything else pure speculation - fact.
Leave it to the AAIB and move on - wish!
Approach to RW26 at Caernarfon not difficult - fact.
Aircraft crashed on approach - fact.
Everything else pure speculation - fact.
Leave it to the AAIB and move on - wish!
The turbine research I read about most recently
Wind farms: A danger to ultra-light aircraft? - Research News August 2012 - Topic 4
and there's a poster about it here:
http://www.forwind.de/makingtorque/P.../Poster_81.pdf
If anything, they seem to suggest that wind gradient is a bigger problem than turbulence.
I agree, having now read the poster, that it's hardly the last word on the matter. I also hadn't realised anyone had gone so far as putting turbines on the airfield.
Wind farms: A danger to ultra-light aircraft? - Research News August 2012 - Topic 4
and there's a poster about it here:
http://www.forwind.de/makingtorque/P.../Poster_81.pdf
If anything, they seem to suggest that wind gradient is a bigger problem than turbulence.
I agree, having now read the poster, that it's hardly the last word on the matter. I also hadn't realised anyone had gone so far as putting turbines on the airfield.
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It's a shame that these threads always go the same way, people start to speculate and then others come along and shoot them down for the speculation.
The accident has happened, and someone has lost their life. Very sad news, but nothing can change that now, and I would hope that no relatives would be reading these boards so soon after an event like this.
Speculation is healthy and good. It can bring up points of discussion which none of us may have thought of before, on this thread for example turbulence created by wind turbines. It's probably absolutely nothing to do with this particular accident, but might just make one person think about it in the future, and it could prevent an accident then.
When the AAIB report eventually comes out in about 18-24 months, most on here will have completely forgotten about this incident, it certainly won't get posted, discussed or picked through, so for many of us this is the only opportunity to brain storm possible causes and how we can work against them in the future. I would call it threat and error management.
The accident has happened, and someone has lost their life. Very sad news, but nothing can change that now, and I would hope that no relatives would be reading these boards so soon after an event like this.
Speculation is healthy and good. It can bring up points of discussion which none of us may have thought of before, on this thread for example turbulence created by wind turbines. It's probably absolutely nothing to do with this particular accident, but might just make one person think about it in the future, and it could prevent an accident then.
When the AAIB report eventually comes out in about 18-24 months, most on here will have completely forgotten about this incident, it certainly won't get posted, discussed or picked through, so for many of us this is the only opportunity to brain storm possible causes and how we can work against them in the future. I would call it threat and error management.
Last edited by RTN11; 20th May 2013 at 23:07.
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RTN11.
Im from the rotary world but experience the same clap trap about keeping silent until the report is out... by which time everyone has forgotten about it and moved on... and a valuable debate is lost.
After all these years it still amazes me. Can someone please tell me in plain English why a spirited debate, however inaccurate it may transpire to be, is a bad thing???
Im from the rotary world but experience the same clap trap about keeping silent until the report is out... by which time everyone has forgotten about it and moved on... and a valuable debate is lost.
After all these years it still amazes me. Can someone please tell me in plain English why a spirited debate, however inaccurate it may transpire to be, is a bad thing???
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Well, since we are all jumping on the speculation bandwagon I might as well join in.
One of the three most useless things in aviation is "runway behind you" and I suspect that many pilots who can plainly see the start of a runway might well be inclined to simply aim for it as a touchdown point, rather than the actual displaced threshold, and do so without necessarily considering the reason for the displacement. A low approach resulting in contact with the trees may have been all that was necessary for this tragedy.
One of the three most useless things in aviation is "runway behind you" and I suspect that many pilots who can plainly see the start of a runway might well be inclined to simply aim for it as a touchdown point, rather than the actual displaced threshold, and do so without necessarily considering the reason for the displacement. A low approach resulting in contact with the trees may have been all that was necessary for this tragedy.
Reminds me of the incident earlier in the year when a 172 on approach into an airfield in the US clipped an SUV. Everyone focused on the SUV driver apparently being in the wrong by not checking the approach but the runway clearly had a displaced threshold to protect against such an eventuality which the pilot violated.
I know I am guilty of making the arrows on the starter ext. my aiming point, particularly on short field ops, but I will always make sure the wheels are never on the ground before the white line.
I know I am guilty of making the arrows on the starter ext. my aiming point, particularly on short field ops, but I will always make sure the wheels are never on the ground before the white line.
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FLYBYMIKE
That is exactly what I was trying to convey but failed to put it across so clearly, if at all, I have no knowledge of this particular incident and am not suggesting the following is what happened, but I remember on my first xc solo I landed at a field with a displaced threshold and I landed quite a bit before the threshold, now I was just a PPLbut I knew about displaced thresholds and why they were there and I also knew there was plenty runway after the threshold for my little 152 but my head told how and where to land at the particular field but my heart said get it down just in case I run out of runway, so in justifying what I wrongly concluded would be the “safest” option not based on aircraft performance or runway length but on an IMAGINED danger, I had created a REAL danger, as we all know the displacement is there for a reason and it is not just for the big boys doing approaches. The reason I specified in my earlier post that the runway was 2400 feet is that every spamcan pilot knows by reading the POH that that is more than enough to land on and they should eliminate from their minds the “best get it in and down regardless of what the marking say” panicked thought process (like I did) and give priority consideration to the POH and Airfield Facilities Directory and not what they imagine the runway to be based on a feeling or imagined threat.
Just my 2 cents from personal experience, and again absolutely no speculation as to what happened to these poor folks.
One of the three most useless things in aviation is "runway behind you" and I suspect that many pilots who can plainly see the start of a runway might well be inclined to simply aim for it as a touchdown point, rather than the actual displaced threshold, and do so without necessarily considering the reason for the displacement.
Just my 2 cents from personal experience, and again absolutely no speculation as to what happened to these poor folks.
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A key lesson that no-one has mentioned is that flying is about procedures, just like surgery. If you fly IFR that goes without saying, but it applies equally to VFR flying. The more precisely you follow procedures the better.
Runway markings are there for a purpose as are circuit and approach patterns and you deviate from them at your peril. If you find that you have deviated then go-around is the appropriate reaction.
I can think of no circumstances where low and slow is a good idea in a spam can even on a short field approach the numbers and procedure are clearly laid out in the POH.
Runway markings are there for a purpose as are circuit and approach patterns and you deviate from them at your peril. If you find that you have deviated then go-around is the appropriate reaction.
I can think of no circumstances where low and slow is a good idea in a spam can even on a short field approach the numbers and procedure are clearly laid out in the POH.
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Well CJW has decided not to tell us why displaced thresholds may be a difficulty, but others have. Well done.
It is of course illusionary, a fixation on landing phase, to the extent that the mind is telling you that the threshold is in fact the end of the Tarmac, not the clearly defined, white runway markings which as we all know indicates where the take off run should start, and the landing phase/flare may begin. In general, displacements are there for very good reason, normally that danger lurks prior to the runway beginning. Carlisle was a classic, can't remember which runway, but there was a fence, a wire fence that crossed the runway, I think laterally they put up big white crosses, but it would have ruined your day had you landed short of the threshold.
It may be that in this particular case, it was really as simple as being to low, and to slow, thinking that get it down on the Tarmac prior to the markings, and of course the trees came a bit too close.
Condolences to all involved.
It is of course illusionary, a fixation on landing phase, to the extent that the mind is telling you that the threshold is in fact the end of the Tarmac, not the clearly defined, white runway markings which as we all know indicates where the take off run should start, and the landing phase/flare may begin. In general, displacements are there for very good reason, normally that danger lurks prior to the runway beginning. Carlisle was a classic, can't remember which runway, but there was a fence, a wire fence that crossed the runway, I think laterally they put up big white crosses, but it would have ruined your day had you landed short of the threshold.
It may be that in this particular case, it was really as simple as being to low, and to slow, thinking that get it down on the Tarmac prior to the markings, and of course the trees came a bit too close.
Condolences to all involved.
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I'm 100% with Flybymike..
Well, since we are all jumping on the speculation bandwagon I might as well join in.
One of the three most useless things in aviation is "runway behind you" and I suspect that many pilots who can plainly see the start of a runway might well be inclined to simply aim for it as a touchdown point, rather than the actual displaced threshold, and do so without necessarily considering the reason for the displacement. A low approach resulting in contact with the trees may have been all that was necessary for this tragedy.
One of the three most useless things in aviation is "runway behind you" and I suspect that many pilots who can plainly see the start of a runway might well be inclined to simply aim for it as a touchdown point, rather than the actual displaced threshold, and do so without necessarily considering the reason for the displacement. A low approach resulting in contact with the trees may have been all that was necessary for this tragedy.
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Jeepers so many crash experts, infering that the pilot allowed the aircraft to get low and slow is conjecture. If this was the case then for all you know there may well be a reason why this happened - imagine how you pilot experts would feel comming into land with a caravan park and trees in front of you and your suddenly without power - would you try and streach it for instance or plant it into the caravan park or trees? I for one find it distastefull that your casting doubts on a pilot without knowing many\any of the details of the incident. An intrim report will be produced in short time. With all 3 in the incident from the same family try and 'think' before writting disparaging remarks about the pilot, I believe he survived so he may of lost his son and injured a grandson - dont you think that weighs heavy enough on his mind?
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If this was the case then for all you know there may well be a reason why this happened - imagine how you pilot experts would feel comming into land with a caravan park and trees in front of you and your suddenly without power - would you try and streach it for instance or plant it into the caravan park or trees?
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Sad turn of events indeed.
I have been to Caernarfon myself - a great place with beautiful scenery. When I heard of the incident, we (me/friends at Barton) immediately thought he must have hit (or missed and crashed) due to the wind turbines recently installed on the airfield.
Some people I know who are skeptical of GA are already saying - "Told you so" / "Maverick pilots" etc. etc. The media does not help - with the Great British Tabloids saying that GA is dangerous, environmentally unfriendly (Sun talking about the environment
) and a non-sport for the elite.
These things do happen, but it seems like while driving like a Maniac with cellphone in one hand is "cool", GA is a danger to the society
Anyway, my best wishes for the survivors, and their families. I hope the youngest one is not put off by this horrible incident.
I have been to Caernarfon myself - a great place with beautiful scenery. When I heard of the incident, we (me/friends at Barton) immediately thought he must have hit (or missed and crashed) due to the wind turbines recently installed on the airfield.
Some people I know who are skeptical of GA are already saying - "Told you so" / "Maverick pilots" etc. etc. The media does not help - with the Great British Tabloids saying that GA is dangerous, environmentally unfriendly (Sun talking about the environment
) and a non-sport for the elite. These things do happen, but it seems like while driving like a Maniac with cellphone in one hand is "cool", GA is a danger to the society
Anyway, my best wishes for the survivors, and their families. I hope the youngest one is not put off by this horrible incident.
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A few facts! the vast vast majority of accidents are pilot error.
When these tragic events happen they scare the rest of us " There for the grace of god go I syndrome".
Hence pilots with the accident fresh in their minds want to talk, take it apart discuss possible scenarios and are more likely to take in those possible scenarious.
One of those scenarios maybe the actual cause of the accident many other may not be but at least pilots discuss.
The usual excuse not to discuss is wait for the AAIB report. Two more facts! When the AAIB report comes out maybe a year later the incident has become a distant memory and few bother.
Two the AAIB Investigations do not always come to a definitive conclusion.
I have lost 7 friends over the years to flying accidents all pilot error!
Should I be such a victim feel free to discuss my accident, take it apart, talk about possible reasons but NEVER STATE ANYTHING AS FACT and always be respectful to the tragic victims
Pace
When these tragic events happen they scare the rest of us " There for the grace of god go I syndrome".
Hence pilots with the accident fresh in their minds want to talk, take it apart discuss possible scenarios and are more likely to take in those possible scenarious.
One of those scenarios maybe the actual cause of the accident many other may not be but at least pilots discuss.
The usual excuse not to discuss is wait for the AAIB report. Two more facts! When the AAIB report comes out maybe a year later the incident has become a distant memory and few bother.
Two the AAIB Investigations do not always come to a definitive conclusion.
I have lost 7 friends over the years to flying accidents all pilot error!
Should I be such a victim feel free to discuss my accident, take it apart, talk about possible reasons but NEVER STATE ANYTHING AS FACT and always be respectful to the tragic victims
Pace
