The landing and judging height.
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I can not understand why all light training aircraft do not have one of these.
Home | Alpha Systems - AOA
I have one installed in my Cub rebuild project to make it easier to teach attitude flying.
Home | Alpha Systems - AOA
I have one installed in my Cub rebuild project to make it easier to teach attitude flying.
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At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.
Understood, but here is the quandary I have, I am a novice TD pilot (200hrs), the aircraft I have the manufacturer, in fact the guy that owns the company and builds them, advised me during the purchase test flight not to do wheeler landings nor high speed taxi in this plane. I had to demonstrate 1 wheeler landing during my 15 hour dual for insurance and TD endorsement. Where I live TD instructors are like hens teeth, especially ones with FAA authority to sign my logbook, so much so that when I had to get 15 hours in make and model for insurance and a FAA TD endorsement I went to the US for it.
So the net result is a guy sitting here in Scotland that flies the hell out of his TD always doing 3 pointers, does not practice wheelers nor high speed taxi, but would love to do them purely from a control and learning point of view (and not for xwinds etc) but due to the fear of arsing it up and wrecking the plane does not. Although on several approaches I contemplated a wheeler then decided at the last minute against it and 3 pointed it in.
With the above in mind is the safest solution to learning on my own to perhaps when doing take off’s from long tar runways, raise the tail and not apply full power then run along for a thousand feet or so balancing before going to full power then take off normally. I am loathe to practice balancing on 2 wheels on landing with the slowing speed offering a bigger chance of ground looping it.
Quote:
At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.
Understood, but here is the quandary I have, I am a novice TD pilot (200hrs), the aircraft I have the manufacturer, in fact the guy that owns the company and builds them, advised me during the purchase test flight not to do wheeler landings nor high speed taxi in this plane. I had to demonstrate 1 wheeler landing during my 15 hour dual for insurance and TD endorsement. Where I live TD instructors are like hens teeth, especially ones with FAA authority to sign my logbook, so much so that when I had to get 15 hours in make and model for insurance and a FAA TD endorsement I went to the US for it.
So the net result is a guy sitting here in Scotland that flies the hell out of his TD always doing 3 pointers, does not practice wheelers nor high speed taxi, but would love to do them purely from a control and learning point of view (and not for xwinds etc) but due to the fear of arsing it up and wrecking the plane does not. Although on several approaches I contemplated a wheeler then decided at the last minute against it and 3 pointed it in.
With the above in mind is the safest solution to learning on my own to perhaps when doing take off’s from long tar runways, raise the tail and not apply full power then run along for a thousand feet or so balancing before going to full power then take off normally. I am loathe to practice balancing on 2 wheels on landing with the slowing speed offering a bigger chance of ground looping it.
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Piper boy
Have sent a PM re your last post.
Always remember, this is an InTerNet forum, with a vast range of opinions, views, and some downright whacky ideas.
CE has some good ideas.
Have sent a PM re your last post.
Always remember, this is an InTerNet forum, with a vast range of opinions, views, and some downright whacky ideas.
CE has some good ideas.
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Looking at 'the picture' is fine for landing. But for aerobatics I'd have gladly chucked out half the cockpit instruments in exchange for an AoA indicator in the Chippy and the Yak.
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How's about just looking forward out of the windscreen.
So let me answer it in its most simple context.
It is impossible to judge angle of attack by just looking forward out of the windscreen.
For those of you not familiar with the subject of angle of attack and angle of attack indicators and their value in staying within the safe envelope of flight I urge you to study the subject.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 17th Apr 2013 at 21:34.
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At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.
At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.
In that I personally have never flown a tail wheel airplane that could not be safely wheel landed my training program is set up for most of the certified aircraft available.
I have flown a few that were quite tricky to three point safely and were far easier to wheel land, but never ran across one that could not be wheel landed.
but here is the quandary I have, I am a novice TD pilot (200hrs), the aircraft I have the manufacturer, in fact the guy that owns the company and builds them, advised me during the purchase test flight not to do wheeler landings nor high speed taxi in this plane.
And if so for what reason?
There are some types where wheelers are't recommended. Maule being one. There are types where the wheeler is the way to go, usually to avoid tail blanking. The DC3 for example.
If you're going into a short grass strip it's not a good idea to waste runway on a wheeler, though you might prefer to wheel or 2 point the same aircraft onto tarmac in a strong / xwind.
Horses for courses really. This, as far as I know, isn't an approved technique.
There's always this if you can't make your mind up. Photograph of Aircraft G-NACA
If you're going into a short grass strip it's not a good idea to waste runway on a wheeler, though you might prefer to wheel or 2 point the same aircraft onto tarmac in a strong / xwind.
Horses for courses really. This, as far as I know, isn't an approved technique.
There's always this if you can't make your mind up. Photograph of Aircraft G-NACA
Last edited by Flyingmac; 18th Apr 2013 at 12:02.
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That video is an excellent example to illustrate where a wheel landing would have given better control at touch down.
The DC3 will exhibit tail blanking in a three point landing?
Where did you get that information?
There are types where the wheeler is the way to go, usually to avoid tail blanking. The DC3 for example.
Where did you get that information?
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 18th Apr 2013 at 15:10.
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I knew you'd bite at that one.
Once again thanks for posting that video that demonstrates so well when a wheel landing would have been the better choice.
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I fly a twin turbine taildragger for a living and we never 3 point it. Its always landed flat and then we push forward on the yoke against the beta to lower the tail to the ground.
High speed tail up taxiing for us is the norm on long runways or we would be blocking them for other traffic for quite some time.
I don't teach the tail up taxi as a separate exercise, it is just the first part of the landing as touch and goes. I have trained enough people to fly our aircraft over the years to know it works well that way. We also have the issue that we don't really have long enough runways in the UK/Europe that are quiet enough to carry out practice going up and down a runway taxiing.
High speed tail up taxiing for us is the norm on long runways or we would be blocking them for other traffic for quite some time.
I don't teach the tail up taxi as a separate exercise, it is just the first part of the landing as touch and goes. I have trained enough people to fly our aircraft over the years to know it works well that way. We also have the issue that we don't really have long enough runways in the UK/Europe that are quiet enough to carry out practice going up and down a runway taxiing.
Last edited by S-Works; 18th Apr 2013 at 18:42.
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Just picked up on this thread, I must say as an instructor teaching Tailwheel I am amazed at how many pilots who have been "trained" on Tailwheel that have not been taught wheeler landings, I then found Tailwheel "instructors" who did not know the technique, if the instructors do not know how to do it, what chance for the students????
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I think the reason that the wheeler is just barely taught/covered is fear on the instructors behalf of the student duffing the prop into the ground, with all the insurance and liability and all the legal nonsense that goes on now. I know when I did my TD checkride I got the distinct feeling the instructor was nervous on final (it was his personal plane) and as soon as I completed the first and only wheeler with him having his hands hovering a few millimetres from the yoke, he announced " that's great" and that was the beginning and end of the wheeler portion of the sign off. I knew it was not a great landing and felt he did also, in fact it was just pure luck that I pulled it off.
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Actually, on most aeroplanes, you have to reach an insane tail-high attitude to get a prop strike (there are exceptions and of course rough strips and bouncy u/c contribute). The bigger danger, perhaps, is losing directional control at the higher speed of a wheeler.
I flew tailwheel aeroplanes for well over 30 years, mostly short aeros flights and into short strips, so many landings per hour in all sorts of winds, runway gradients and surfaces, and approach / climbout obstructions. I've yet to groundloop. And as I haven't flown for many months now, and probably won't again, I might have got away with it!
I flew tailwheel aeroplanes for well over 30 years, mostly short aeros flights and into short strips, so many landings per hour in all sorts of winds, runway gradients and surfaces, and approach / climbout obstructions. I've yet to groundloop. And as I haven't flown for many months now, and probably won't again, I might have got away with it!
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This conversation should be had more often among pilots.
The fear of teaching wheel landings is astonishing, the wheel landing is the best method of maintaining control during difficult x/wind landings and if for no other reason than safety, teaching proper wheel landings is more important than teaching the three point landing......if you are only going to teach one method.
To measure the flying ability of flight instructors in the training industry today asking every instructor if they can teach the wheel landing in basic tail wheel aircraft will bring some interesting statistics......
........maybe 10% of today's flight instructors have that basic flying skill?
Makes one wonder what other skills they lack doesn't it?
If you are concerned your prop may be in danger of hitting the ground doing wheel landings just put the prop in the vertical position and raise the tail until it touches the ground........you may be surprised at how high you have to raise the tail in most small tail wheel airplanes.
The fear of teaching wheel landings is astonishing, the wheel landing is the best method of maintaining control during difficult x/wind landings and if for no other reason than safety, teaching proper wheel landings is more important than teaching the three point landing......if you are only going to teach one method.
To measure the flying ability of flight instructors in the training industry today asking every instructor if they can teach the wheel landing in basic tail wheel aircraft will bring some interesting statistics......
........maybe 10% of today's flight instructors have that basic flying skill?
Makes one wonder what other skills they lack doesn't it?
If you are concerned your prop may be in danger of hitting the ground doing wheel landings just put the prop in the vertical position and raise the tail until it touches the ground........you may be surprised at how high you have to raise the tail in most small tail wheel airplanes.
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If you are concerned your prop may be in danger of hitting the ground doing wheel landings just put the prop in the vertical position and raise the tail until it touches the ground........you may be surprised at how high you have to raise the tail in most small tail wheel airplanes
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I flew tailwheel aeroplanes for well over 30 years, mostly short aeros flights and into short strips, so many landings per hour in all sorts of winds, runway gradients and surfaces, and approach / climbout obstructions. I've yet to groundloop. And as I haven't flown for many months now, and probably won't again, I might have got away with it!
..in fact it is probably the reason we never lost control....we had to control yaw or it would get ugly real fast.
...... I went for a real wild ride one time though checking out a Twin Otter pilot on the Grumman Turbo Goose. He went into reverse as soon as the wheels touched the runway and one prop got into reverse before the other. We went off both sides of the runway before I got it going straight but I must have been in control.
As to forgetting...naw you never forget.....I also am retired and fly a friends tail wheel airplane occasionally and it is like walking, you never forget.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 18th Apr 2013 at 21:30.
Had fun in the cub today. The windsock blew away last week and the clubhouse flag just isn't the same..... 
Got out of the glider, freezing cold at cloudbase but some cracking good thermals, then got the cub out ( not that it is all that cozy)
Bimbled around with a friend for a while (her first flight with me) then a nice one wheel at a time crosswind landing with a wee tailwind component. Got to agree, a wheel landing works best in less than calm conditions.
Spring may yet be on the way!
Got out of the glider, freezing cold at cloudbase but some cracking good thermals, then got the cub out ( not that it is all that cozy)
Bimbled around with a friend for a while (her first flight with me) then a nice one wheel at a time crosswind landing with a wee tailwind component. Got to agree, a wheel landing works best in less than calm conditions.
Spring may yet be on the way!
This is a general question, but perhaps specifically aimed at Chuck.
By way of preamble, I learned to fly in the UK, mainly on UAS Chipmunks with RAF QFIs. I was taught to always three-point, although I have a vague recollection of trying wheel landings on at least one occasion.
I never had problems with three-pointing, although to be fair , we had very conservative cross-wind limits, in order to protect the fleet from the efforts of ham-fisted students.
After graduation, I emigrated to Canada, where I obtained a Canadian PPL and after joining the local gliding club, I got checked out in a Citabria, in preparation for towing. I noticed that my instructor preferred wheel landings to three-pointers and I encountered the same preferences on subsequent occasions when flying with other instructors.
However, during my years at the the gliding club, I noted that without exception, the tow-pilots preferred three-pointers, even in quite strong winds. I also noticed over the years, watching 180s and 185s landing, that their pilots almost always wheel-land. This also seems to be the preferred method when reading articles about tail-dragger Cessnas.
So my two-part question is:
1. Is there a tendency to teach wheel-landings rather than three-pointers in North America?
2. Are 180s and 185s difficult to three-point?
By way of preamble, I learned to fly in the UK, mainly on UAS Chipmunks with RAF QFIs. I was taught to always three-point, although I have a vague recollection of trying wheel landings on at least one occasion.
I never had problems with three-pointing, although to be fair , we had very conservative cross-wind limits, in order to protect the fleet from the efforts of ham-fisted students.
After graduation, I emigrated to Canada, where I obtained a Canadian PPL and after joining the local gliding club, I got checked out in a Citabria, in preparation for towing. I noticed that my instructor preferred wheel landings to three-pointers and I encountered the same preferences on subsequent occasions when flying with other instructors.
However, during my years at the the gliding club, I noted that without exception, the tow-pilots preferred three-pointers, even in quite strong winds. I also noticed over the years, watching 180s and 185s landing, that their pilots almost always wheel-land. This also seems to be the preferred method when reading articles about tail-dragger Cessnas.
So my two-part question is:
1. Is there a tendency to teach wheel-landings rather than three-pointers in North America?
2. Are 180s and 185s difficult to three-point?
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Which method to use is determined by a lot of factors.
Some airplanes are easier to three point than others such as a Pitts, the reason being the difficulty in seeing straight ahead over the nose.
From my years of flying tail wheel airplanes I generally prefer to wheel them on when using a paved runway and three point on grass.
The big advantage to wheel landings is more precise directional control during x/wind landings and if directional control starts to get out of hand you have inertia for the go around.
H O W E V E R .......
You should be equally proficient and comfortable in both methods before you can consider yourself a competent tail wheel pilot.
Some airplanes are easier to three point than others such as a Pitts, the reason being the difficulty in seeing straight ahead over the nose.
From my years of flying tail wheel airplanes I generally prefer to wheel them on when using a paved runway and three point on grass.
The big advantage to wheel landings is more precise directional control during x/wind landings and if directional control starts to get out of hand you have inertia for the go around.
H O W E V E R .......
You should be equally proficient and comfortable in both methods before you can consider yourself a competent tail wheel pilot.