PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 19th Dec 2012, 10:54   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 71
Giving passengers control

Hi everyone,

This is something which has been confusing me a bit since I got my Licence:

When I fly with passengers I never allow them to take control of the aircraft even if we're up high, but I do like to explain things like why certain checks are carried out, the take-off procedures etc as its good practice explaining these things to other people and makes sure you don't take any short cuts. However I have noticed a few people who have their PPL (no other ratings) and are openly admitting to letting people know that they gave a passenger control of the aircraft.

I thought a PPL pilot was never allowed to give control to the passenger? I can partly understand if the passenger is a student pilot close to the skills test but I still wouldn't be comfortable handing control of the aircraft to him/her. Not because I don't trust their flying ability but I was always under the impression it was prohibited for PPL pilots to give passengers the chance to fly.

I've talked with some people and they agree with me however some other PPLs are saying the opposite.

Would be great to know what you think.
pilot in command is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:15   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,366
If you were speaking about letting a passenger in your car take over you might have a point, but you are taking an unnecessarily strict line, in my view

I've often let passengers take the controls. I brief them to give back control when I ask for it and have never had a problem. After all the most they can to is to go off track or up and down and I have hundreds of feet available to recover the situation. In one case I let a blind person fly and they loved being in control.

I would say that if I am flying in congested airspace or close to CAS then I take over
robin is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:17   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,554
You are the pilot in command, it is your decision. If you are inexperienced then it is probably wise not to let others fly it and if its a school aircraft they may have something to say about it.
Quote:
I thought a PPL pilot was never allowed to give control to the passenger?
There is no law to prevent it!
Whopity is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:25   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
There is no law to prevent it!
You're kidding, right? It is absolutely illegal to operate an aircraft without the necessary qualifications (licenses and ratings), unless you are a student performing a training flight with a certified instructor. Your being the "pilot in command" does not give you the authority to break the law (emergency situations notwithstanding).

If you mean "it's illegal but also unenforceable" (no CCTV in the sky yet, not even in the UK ) then you might have a point.

Last edited by Dg800; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:26.
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:26   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 252
If I am taking a non-pilot up for a ride such as friends, family etc, I am disappointed if they don't at least have a few seconds in what they think is "control". Clearly not near the ground or in the circuit or any other higher risk scenario. And my hands and feet are never far from the controls. I retain throttle and rudder, but the pax think they're flying when they're moving the yoke. A very clear brief and clear understanding is required. The smile in their faces is worth it every time.

Last edited by fwjc; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:27.
fwjc is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:28   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:

I thought a PPL pilot was never allowed to give control to the passenger?
Actually, absolutely no one is allowed to give control to a passenger. The student/instructor case is a completely different situation as a student is not just a passenger (for starters, he/she needs to have the right type of medical just to commence training).

Ciao,

Dg800
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:30   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: South-East, United Kingdom
Posts: 246
If I have passengers I often ask them if they want a go at the controls. I only do so if we are in straight and level flight, suitable weather, clear of busy airfields (where thats possible to determine) and controlled airspace. I always keep my hands on the controls and say I will follow through with them. That gives them the confidence that there is someone really in control. Tell them it only requires very slight movement on the yoke - and demonstrate it. If they're doing OK, loosen your control of the yoke, or let go completely but dont be too far away in case you need to take avoiding action. I dont see the harm in that, but it depends on your level of confidence, and your confidence in the other person.

Thats in contrast though to leaving them to fly the plane from the right hand seat responsible for keeping a lookout and navigation while you swing round and talk to people in the back for 5 minutes. That would be silly. Regardless of what happens, you are the PIC and are responsible for whatever happens.

Last edited by piperarcher; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:32.
piperarcher is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:36   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,601
Quote:
Actually, absolutely no one is allowed to give control to a passenger.
Where is that stated?

Never heard that one in 30 years of flying...
Agaricus bisporus is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:43   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 2nm from Old Warden
Posts: 70
Quote:
Actually, absolutely no one is allowed to give control to a passenger. The student/instructor case is a completely different situation as a student is not just a passenger (for starters, he/she needs to have the right type of medical just to commence training).

Ciao,

Dg800
Completely incorrect. A student pilot needs a medical before flying solo. Otherwise, anyone having a trial lesson as a birthday gift would need to have a valid medical.
rats404 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:44   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
Where is that stated?
BTW, in the UK it's clearly stated here:

The Air Navigation Order 2009

"50.(1) Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
(2) An appropriate licence for the purposes of this Part means a licence which entitles the holder to perform the functions being undertaken in relation to the aircraft concerned on the particular flight."



There are exceptions listed next, but you won't find any exception for "passengers who want to have a little bit of harmless fun". Exceptions mostly deal with training.

The rules refer to "acting as member of the flight crew of an aircraft". If manipulating the primary controls does not qualify one as a "member of the flight crew" then the next one is on me.

Last edited by Dg800; 19th Dec 2012 at 12:13.
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:46   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
Completely incorrect.
Actually, that's correct where I come from (which means there is no such thing as a trial lesson around these parts), hence it cannot be completely incorrect.

Last edited by Dg800; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:47.
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:51   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
Never heard that one in 30 years of flying...
Agree with AB here. I'm a pilot and volunteer with the Dutch charity "Stichting Hoogvliegers". We openly advertise that the chronically ill and handicapped children we fly with, are going to handle the controls once we're established in the cruise. We have openly discussed this and other matters with the Dutch authorities and they have no objection whatsoever.

Of course you need to apply common sense. For starters, we require that the children we fly with are able to understand spoken commands (in Dutch) and are able to execute these. We don't fly with children up front who might be exhibiting unexpected/uncontrolled behavior or who might have suicidal tendencies. We provide each pilot with a "bag of tricks" on how to deal with their passengers, how to subtly keep control of the aircraft while giving the impression that the passenger is flying, and how to get an unwilling passenger to relinquish control without resorting to violence. And we do stress that in the ultimate case they are allowed to resort to violence.

Quote:
It is absolutely illegal to operate an aircraft without the necessary qualifications (licenses and ratings)
True. But "operating an aircraft" is a far broader subject than "manipulating the controls".

If letting a passenger having a go at the controls would be illegal, then we would be openly responsible for 5000+ breaches of the law. The evidence is out there on our website in the form of 5000+ trip reports so the government would have no problem prosecuting us. That this hasn't happened must be telling something.

Last edited by BackPacker; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:51.
BackPacker is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:51   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
Posts: 10,439
There is a UK CAA safety leaflet which states that if a pax becomes air sick you should get them to fly it as this often reduces the sick feeling.

Then there is the recommendation that pilots who have done the safety pilot course for partners also practise occassionally post course.

Its not a problem in the UK.
mad_jock is online now   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:00   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
That this hasn't happened must be telling something.
That the authorities in the Netherlands are very tolerant and easy going? This would match the (somewhat stereotyped) view the world has of this country, so no surprise there.
The fact that something is tolerated does not necessarily mean it's legal. Clubs around these parts also used to offer passenger flights even if they have no AOC (obviously!) and they usually put a PPL and not a CPL holder at the controls. That only lasted until there was a serious accident with injured passengers and the PIC and the club's president ended up in court, where the presiding judge will judge the case based solely on the law and not on what's "tolerated". This immediately put an end to passenger flights being offered by flying clubs in the whole country, as they are illegal without an AOC (and have always been).

Ciao,

Dg800
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:05   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,267
The only legal definition of pilot in command refers to being responsible for the safety of the flight, there is no mention of having your hands on or manipulating the controls.

There is nothing in the law that says it is illegal to let a passenger manipulate the controls, you as pilot in command are still the one responsible for the safe operation of the flight.

This is different from driving or any of the other comparisons drawn as they don't have dual controls, and usually have a provisional licence requirement.
RTN11 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:17   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
The fact that something is tolerated does not necessarily mean it's legal.
True. But if you specifically ask the authorities about the legal status of a certain action, and they have no objection, you stand a pretty good case.

Quote:
Clubs around these parts also used to offer passenger flights even if they have no AOC (obviously!) and they usually put a PPL and not a CPL holder at the controls. That only lasted until there was a serious accident with injured passengers and the PIC and the club's president ended up in court, where the presiding judge will judge the case based solely on the law and not on what's "tolerated". This immediately put an end to passenger flights being offered by flying clubs in the whole country, as they are illegal without an AOC (and have always been).
So they breached the rules on "aerial work", not those on "manipulating the controls". Completely different thing.

Last edited by BackPacker; 19th Dec 2012 at 12:19.
BackPacker is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:20   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
So they breached the rules on "aerial work", not those on "manipulating the controls". Completely different thing.
You don't say?

I was opining that what is "tolerated" is not necessarily "legal" in the strictest sense, and I used that example to support the point I was trying to make. It seemed pretty clear to me, but maybe my English is not really up to the task?

Ciao,

DG800
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:23   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,527
Quote:
BTW, in the UK it's clearly stated here:

The Air Navigation Order 2009

"50.(1) Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
(2) An appropriate licence for the purposes of this Part means a licence which entitles the holder to perform the functions being undertaken in relation to the aircraft concerned on the particular flight."


There are exceptions listed next, but you won't find any exception for "passengers who want to have a little bit of harmless fun". Exceptions mostly deal with training.

The rules refer to "acting as member of the flight crew of an aircraft". If manipulating the primary controls does not qualify one as a "member of the flight crew" then the next one is on me.
If operating the ailerons and stabiliser is sufficient to make you part of the flight crew, then we be better start getting auto pilots to do skill test.

I think you are seeing what you want to you rather than what is written.

Last edited by dublinpilot; 19th Dec 2012 at 12:24.
dublinpilot is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:24   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
I was opining that what is "tolerated" is not necessarily "legal" in the strictest sense,
Was that paid-trial-lesson-by-a-PPL-without-AOC ever "tolerated" then by the authorities? Or did they simply not know what was going on, and stamped it out as soon as they learned what was happening?

In our case it's not so much "tolerated" but "encouraged" or even "applauded" by the government.
BackPacker is offline   Reply
Old 19th Dec 2012, 12:28   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 43
Posts: 462
Quote:
If operating the ailerons and stabiliser is sufficient to make you part of the flight crew
Actually piloting the aircraft does not make you part of the flight crew? What would then, pray tell?
Dg800 is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:41.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network