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Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.


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Old 26th Dec 2012, 20:26   #101 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
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Backpacker, me old china, back on page two you mentioned letting your have-a-go pax preform a loop....please don't!

In fact, I have upset some posters by insisting it is way out of order to frighten first time pax with aeros of any sort. I did myself, a while back, thinking that the chap in the front of my glider was highly qualified to enjoy the experience of a spin and recovery (I am a qualified instructor, or was at the time...). During our flight he had mentioned that down there at Kineton ordinance depot was his place of work, and he confessed he was a bomb disposal expert....could anyone be braver than that, I thought, and asked him (we had done some steep turns) if he would like to see a spin (for the purpose of loosing some altitude, had to get the glider back in half an hour for the next victim). O yes, he said, so we spun, and he never came back.

It is my conviction that the thrill of flying and having a go is quite enough for the first time. It is my further conviction that it is MANDATORY to talk your life partner into having a go, and in fact having a fair amount of a go, even if you are only a moderately experienced private pilot, and that includes use of the radio, because if you go unserviceable, she could save her life and yours...
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 20:54   #102 (permalink)
 
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I would say it is entirely dependent on the type of people of both tbe passenger and pilot. I have never had a problem with aeros, and would have been thrilled to have had the experience on my first flight.

Some people never fly at all and never want to, and there are all the others in between. Good judgement is required rather than a blanket rule.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 15:25   #103 (permalink)
 
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Now that we are agreed that, at least in the UK, allowing passengers to manipulate the controls is legal, does anyone allow them to use the radio?

My understanding is that this would be frowned upon as they are not under training and are therefore not exempt from holding a FRTOL.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 16:19   #104 (permalink)
 
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always give pax a go, surprising how quick they give the controls back when it gets abit rough !
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 16:26   #105 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
It is my conviction that the thrill of flying and having a go is quite enough for the first time.
FAir enough Mary, thats your opinion as a qualified and experienced pilot, and I am sure true for 95% of first time pax!

But IMHO, if the pax wants to go for it, and the PIC is experienced enough, go for it. My very first flight in a light aircraft (Chipmunk) was with an extremely experienced pilot and very good friend. He let me have control once out of the ATZ flying straight and level, then showed me some aeros and asked if I wanted to do some...which I duly did and had a thrill of a lifetime! I also flew a couple of touch and goes (albeit at a quieter airfield than his home one)

THAT is what underlined my desire to learn to fly...so please don't rule out aeros for pax altogether - for some it increases their desire to learn to fly..which can only be good!
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 17:20   #106 (permalink)
 
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Now that we are agreed that, at least in the UK, allowing passengers to manipulate the controls is legal, does anyone allow them to use the radio?

My understanding is that this would be frowned upon as they are not under training and are therefore not exempt from holding a FRTOL.
Pretty sure that would not be legal, at least in UK. An untrained person could cause all sorts of problems if the transmit on a busy frequency.

The rules surrounding use of aeronautical radio are pretty strict. When the BA engineers got electrical power onto our Concorde (G-BOAC) at Manchester and it all came to life, we had the radios tuned to the Tower and switched through the cockpit speakers. I was very tempted to plug in my headset and call up on the Delivery frequency "Manchester Delivery, Speedbird Concorde Alpha Charlie radio check".

That would have been a bit of fun, but of course illegal not least because AC's radio fit is no longer a licenced installation. So I didn't!
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 17:54   #107 (permalink)
 
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Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
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Its legal for anyone to use the radio as long as they are under the supervision of a RTFOL. But only in an aircraft.


And even thats ignored on the ground handling/ops freqs where any one seems to have a shot.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 20:11   #108 (permalink)
 
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Per ANO 2009 Section 51, the exemption from holding an operator's licence is that the person operating the radio is "being trained in an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom to perform duties as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is authorised to operate the radiotelephony station by the holder of the licence granted for that station under any enactment"

Whilst this may be more honoured in the breach than the observance it does seem to rule out anything other than persons flying with a qualified instructor on a training flight.

It is also rather sad that I had nothing better to do on a Saturday night than look that up.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 22:42   #109 (permalink)
 
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I type thi sat th ebottom of my fourth can o fStrongbow injust oven a hour.


I 'm happy to let SOME pax, AIrtrraffickers mostly, handle the radio butnot the controls.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 10:54   #110 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Per ANO 2009 Section 51, the exemption from holding an operator's licence is that the person operating the radio is "being trained in an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom to perform duties as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is authorised to operate the radiotelephony station by the holder of the licence granted for that station under any enactment"

Whilst this may be more honoured in the breach than the observance it does seem to rule out anything other than persons flying with a qualified instructor on a training flight.
Where does it say that the holder of the licence has to be an instructor?
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 11:20   #111 (permalink)
 
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Its all linked between two bits of legislation.

The ANO and radio telelphony act I think.

That bit of regulation is so that a student can go solo and use the radio while training.

That bit you have highlighted is refering to the holder of the license for the radio set.

Does anyone actually know of any of the radio stuff ever being actually enforced?
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:24   #112 (permalink)
 
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My annual fees for the renewal of the license for each machine is rigidly enforced.

I even have the cheque stubs to prove it
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 17:22   #113 (permalink)
 
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Personally I would say stay away from unusual attitudes for a passenger who has never been in a light aircraft before. I am all for letting the pax have a go at flying including some gentle turns and climbs/descents. Pretty much everyone I have let fly have enjoyed the experience, although most are happy with only a few minutes and then want you to take over.

I have taken a lot of people out in my Nanchang. Many profess a desire to experience some "fun" flying but in my experience less then half actually enjoyed even mild aeros. I now start with steep turns (60 deg bank) If they are happy with that then I do a mild wing over. This is usually as far as people want to go. If they are still game then a roll and a loop will be enough excitement.

One thing that is very important with pax when you are doing anything other then gentle manoevering is to make sure they know to look straight ahead. A roll with the pax looking sideways will almost always result in instant nausea
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 20:48   #114 (permalink)
 
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Big Pistons, thank you for supporting my POV regarding fancy attitudes to impress newcomers. Those who responded saying they just loved aeros on their first flight are the exception....the ones who don't come back at all are the eloquent voters. I always loved the idea of flying, after taking quells to prevent airsickness for my first ten lessons, but nearly walked away altogether after my first experience of a spin. And took a couple of years instructing before I felt happy to inflict it on others.....now of course I am as sadistic as any other instructor.

In the gliding syllabus in the UK, the spin is still part of the training. In the US in power, at any rate, it is not.

I particularly disapprove of throwing kids about the sky. Even if parents have approved, they usually do not understand what is involved. Kids may be motivated by peer pressure, and assume that a flying experience is equal to a fairground treat.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 21:13   #115 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
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It's also vital to talk non-pilots through manouvres such as:

"We'll dive for a bit of speed and you'll feel the 'G' come on as we pullup... here we go, diving for speed, level, and pulling up n-o-w to about... this attitude, then r-o-l-l the aeroplane all the way around...isn't that fantastic... and then gently ease back up, up and here we are straight and level again".

It's the unexpected 'G' or sudden manouvre that they don't like. Who would?
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 21:47   #116 (permalink)
 
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Location: South Oxfordshire
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I have to agree on that point. I don't reckon my enthusiasm would have lasted long with unexpected or unexplained manoeuvers. I was fortunate to fly with two excellent, professional and communicative instructors, who also didn't bugger about if I felt queasy!
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 09:59   #117 (permalink)
 
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I terrified a first time passenger once with a touch and go. Of course I should have explained in advance but I was inexperienced myself. She thought something terrible had gone wrong...

Tim
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 11:02   #118 (permalink)
 
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Two of us once flew a 172 Barton to Mona and back, with a work colleague as pax in the back who'd never flown GA before. My mate flew it there, I flew it back. He's taller than me so had wound the P1 seat down a bit, something I didn't notice until the climb after t/o, with the nose-up attitude.

I reached under the seat for the handle to raise it, but it didn't seem to work. I turned to my mate in the P2 seat and said "it won't go up".

Our colleague in the back apparently (we didn't notice at the time) nearly went into a panic on hearing this. He though I was referring to the aeroplane!
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 13:01   #119 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2000
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Quote:
I terrified a first time passenger once with a touch and go.
I explained to the passenger that I was going to land and take off again so as to get in another practice landing ... but didn't explain the terminology, so when he heard me call "final touch and go" he thought I was saying it was touch and go as to whether I was likely to land safely.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 13:55   #120 (permalink)
 
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Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
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its like the old unconfirmed story.

Pilot is giving a PA in the cruise and half way stops with the phrase "dear god!!"

He comes back on 5 mins later and aplogises.

Says something along the lines of.

"Sorry about that ladys and gentlemen, one of the cabin crew was very kindly bring us a cup of coffee and I managed to spill it. You should see the state of the front of my trousers"

Scots accent is heard from amongst the masses in the back "aye and you see the state of the back of mine pal"
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