Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Glider Tugging

Old 31st Mar 2012, 09:59
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Quote:
only the wealthy can afford the pleasure of learning to fly

Aaaaargh. NOT SO!! Only those who are wealthy and those who are not wealthy but don't smoke, drink, or have any other hobbies can afford to fly. Basically anyone in reasonable employment, and I don't mean 50K a year but national average or even less.

It all depends on your priorities. I get fed up to the back teeth with the 'rich men's toys' attitude, anyone can fly if they give up their three foreign holidays a year and the new car in the drive.
Absolutely. I am doing it on a pension. Ex working class, not an ex stockbroker. Own a/c, LAA, 18litrs hr, fly when I like. X reg car which I'll fix as required. Wealthy my ass.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 10:40
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Some close encounters may look entertaining with hindsight, but all power pilots flying near or over active gliding sites must be aware of potential hazards. Same as skydiving sites, especially operations out of mixed activity GA airfield.

True, mishaps can happen and it's not just the open airbrakes stuff.
Canopy popping open at the wrong time, diverting the attention of surprised early solo pilot can easily cause accident. Just like the one I heard of last summer, while ago in the US, where the tuggie didn't make it.

I don't want to scaremonge, but whoever decides to do tugging, must be very cautious, especially with early solo pilots at the back end of rope close to grond and first 500 ft or more.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 13:36
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I'm a weekend tuggie at a small UK club, being a tuggie has two extremes - boredom because no one wants a tow (although I'll fly a glider if no one wants a tow) or intense flying having to have eyes on stalks to spot gliders as you're returning to the airfield.

Tugging has been described to me (by someone with 20K+ tows) as the most dangerous job in flying due to all the aforementioned things that can go wrong.

There's also an emphasis on economical flying to maximise fuel and airframe/engine time.

Rewarding though when you have reasonable day and the Pawnee's fun to fly (in an agricultural way).

7700
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 15:08
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Slightly close to topic, I have been a member of a couple of R/C model flying clubs, and they sometimes have extremely complex political issues.
+1 - never had anything to do with fixed wing gliding, but I was simply bemused by my 'welcome' at the few r/c clubs I've been to. And they wonder why the average r/c flyer is competing with Methusulah.

In general, only a minority of individuals are to blame, but in practice they tend to dominate.
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Old 18th May 2015, 12:50
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I have enjoyed reading a lot of the comments in this thread...
As a Silver C / NPPL I am interested in getting the tug pilot thingy written on my PPL(A) when I upgrade...
Biggest problem is logistical! My 100kg body mass makes a K13 fall(?) into the non aerobatic category, so the more demanding exercises are a no-no.
Current practice is doubly hard to attain if you are one of but two club winch drivers, the whole Tweedledum/Tweedledee scenario threatens.
One snag about being aware of the best bits of sky to use when climbing in tandem, is simply that someone else may have got there first... and I wouldn't guarantee seeing another glider until it was quite close! He might not see me either, under the nose.... or tail.
Rules... high speed goalposts are making aviation quite hard to follow.
Some gliding CFI's have been authorising tug pilots for many years... but they are no longer able to do so under new rules.
So, I have to get a glider pilot licence, at least 100 hours P1 for insurance purposes, and taildragger time for the Pawnee.
My first solo flight 40 years ago was on a Rollason Condor, no flaps, G-ATAU
It was simpler then....
By the way, I worked at Lasham in 1998 as a winch driver/groundsman, and the sheer size of the place and number of members (800) made for a rather impersonal feeling, nobody spoke to me until I got fed up and wore my Silver C on my overalls.... lots of nice people there, but all strangers!!
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Old 18th May 2015, 14:44
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Over forty years ago I used to tow gliders for the RAE gliding club at Farnborough and for the Kent gliding club using a Tiger Club Tiger Moth. The gliders were for the most part primary lead sleds, and towing at 50kts full throttle with the oil temp rising, the complaint was always that I was towing too fast!
But what a difference towing at the Nationals with high performance machines and experienced pilots! And what crowded airspace around the release zone!
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Old 18th May 2015, 17:43
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Rules... high speed goalposts are making aviation quite hard to follow.
Some gliding CFI's have been authorising tug pilots for many years... but they are no longer able to do so under new rules.
So, I have to get a glider pilot licence, at least 100 hours P1 for insurance purposes, and taildragger time for the Pawnee.
My first solo flight 40 years ago was on a Rollason Condor, no flaps, G-ATAU
The new rules are deferred until April 2018 - in the meantime you and gliding clubs can choose whether to continue the way it was or to adopt EASA rules. There are a load of CAA derrogations that give details. Insurance - well that's another matter. In summary you don't NEED a towing rating at present. Your club's CFI or nominated deputy (i.e. usually the Chief Tug Pilot) can train you and let you loose when you reach the required standard.

Some 7-day a week clubs are more interested in weekday tuggies with limited gliding because they sometimes have difficulties filling their weekday rosters. Weekends it is a different matter with plenty of aeroplane pilots with gliding experience.

Having trained tug pilots with and without prior gliding experience my experience is that most power pilots can adapt to the different environment easily if properly briefed etc., whilst some just don't have the aptitude.
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Old 18th May 2015, 20:27
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There's a little difficulty with our little club... no tug, ergo no tugmaster, CFI is very probably not able to give authorisation should I turn up with an aircraft with towing gear!! Talk about small puddles, I'm the frog with the NPPL and maybe the only member in current power practice.
Under the old rules, 15 tows between tug pilot and glider pilot was a minimum requirement.

So if I turn up with a Robin DR300 of questionable vintage and a rope, is it gonna be legal for me to tow out of a field I have not yet landed on..... answers on the back of a matchbox please!

I spent many years at KGC, about 1985 to 1998 before it got political, then got a day job at Lasham! Anyone who flew Tiger Moths at Kent must have a close knowledge of the trees around the site.....

Last edited by DeafOldFart; 19th May 2015 at 19:57. Reason: errata!
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Old 18th May 2015, 20:56
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There's a little difficulty with our little club... no tug, ergo no tugmaster, CFI is very probably not able to give authorisation should I turn up with an aircraft with towing gear!! Talk about small puddles, I'm the frog with the NPPL and maybe the only member in current power practice.
Under the old rules, 15 tows between tug pilot and glider pilot was a minimum requirement.

So if I turn up with a Robin DR300 of questionable vintage and a rope, is it gonna be legal for me to tow out of a field I have not yet landed on..... answers on the back of a matchbox please!

I spent many years at KGC, about 1985 to 1998 before it got political, then got a day job at Lasham! Anyone who flew Tiger Moths at Kent must have a close knowledge of the trees around the site..... I am still in touch with Glyn Richards, who has now moved to Stow Maries with the remnants of the Tiger Club. Maybe your name is legend....
I don't know where the figure of 15 comes from. The BGA rule for years was, "The sum of the tows made by the tug pilot and the glider pilot, in their respective capacities, shall not be less than six." So as long as the glider pilot has 6 tows under his/her belt the tug pilot needs none!

If the CFI is satisfied that you are suitably qualified and are a member of the same club as the glider pilot (a legal rquirement) he can authorise you.

In practice the sensible thing to do is go with your tug to a gliding site that does aerotow tow and do a few dual tows with one of their check pilots to gain/regain currency in towing as necessary. Whether you have towed out the the site before is irrelevant. Most tug pilots have pitched up at another airfield and done some tows - either on request or to do retrieves. Usually a briefing on the local area (especially noise sensitivities) is all that is needed.
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Old 18th May 2015, 21:10
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As I understand it.... NPPL holders can tow gliders. Nothing gets written on the licence.
EASA licences have entries for extra items.
Unless the gliding club CFI is qualified to the new licensing standards, he/she cannot certify competence, the fees payable to qualify have deterred many suitable candidates from becoming examiners....
Come 2018, there will be a bit of a problem, and betcha the date gets pushed back again!!!
If you have PPL(A), you may have difficulty getting a towing rating, so you will have to get an NPPL to fly the tug...
Unless you have an FAA licence maybe??

The figure of 15 tows was a club requirement perhaps, the 6 tow thing is a bit of an historical item!! That was introduced after a few fatal upsets.... maybe in the '30's.
I believe our current CFI was given special permission to act as such at a single, winch launch only site, and has no power flying licence.
Aerotow launches have to be arranged on occasion for exercises such as full spin training, otherwise club members have to travel to other clubs for instruction! A tug and driver must be obtained, it would be easier to hire a tug for the day with a resident member flying it.
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Old 18th May 2015, 22:14
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As I understand it.... NPPL holders can tow gliders. Nothing gets written on the licence.
EASA licences have entries for extra items.
Unless the gliding club CFI is qualified to the new licensing standards, he/she cannot certify competence, the fees payable to qualify have deterred many suitable candidates from becoming examiners....
Come 2018, there will be a bit of a problem, and betcha the date gets pushed back again!!!
If you have PPL(A), you may have difficulty getting a towing rating, so you will have to get an NPPL to fly the tug...
Unless you have an FAA licence maybe??
Even if you have an EASA licence PPL(A) or LAPL(A) you don't need a towing rating on it in the UK before 2018.

Under current rules clubs decide who can teach towing. Under EASA you only need to have a PPL(A) and a Class Rating Instructor Certificate Restricted to teaching towing to teach EASA licence holders. Once the teaching is completed there is no test you just get the rating added to your licence. The syllabus is neither complicated nor long. Tug pilot must have experienced 5 tows in a glider, and ten in the tug - of which 5 must be dual and a briefing that takes less than a day.

To get my CRI(Restricted to teaching towing) I only needed a letter from my CFI stating that I already did it - he is not a power pilot. I got the ratings to tow based only on experience - using aeroplanes on my PPL and using TMGs on my LAPL(S).

It really isn't a big deal. The BGA did excellent work in persuading EASA to keep it simple.
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Old 18th May 2015, 22:59
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The requirements for converting existing BGA tugpilot qualifications into EASA ratings are explained here, sections J & K at the bottom of the page. (This page was written some time ago, before the extension to the derogation; references to 2015 should be read as references to 2018.)

Basically:
  • have qualified as a tugpilot at a BGA club
  • have at least 30 hours & 60 TOs & landings PIC in the relevant class of aeroplane (SEP or TMG)
  • 10 flights tugging as PIC at a BGA club
All you need to convert is to find an appropriate person (either CFI, club chairman or club secretary) to certify on your application that you meet the requirements.

The CAA & BGA have pragmatically agreed that pilots may continue to operate to the old, pre-EASA rules, even if the pilot holds an EASA licence, at least until Apr 2018. You can still fly as a tugpilot without holding an EASA tow rating, a tugmaster or any other pilot may continue to instruct potential tugpilots without holding an FI or CRI certificate.
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Old 19th May 2015, 08:36
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A bit sad to see it all bound up in so many rules.
In my opinion one of the finest flying experiences was to be towed by a tug pilot who knew a thermal when he felt it. A tug / glider combination climbing efficiently in a tight and turbulent thermal is a fine example of trust and teamwork. This would only happen when both pilots knew who the other one was, and their skill level.
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Old 19th May 2015, 08:59
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true enough. If you as tuggie know that the glider pilot behind you is well experienced, it is quite fun, on encountering a useful thermal at 800 feet, to turn in the lift until he decides he is fed up following you round.

If a winch only club needs a tug from another club, it is usually brought round by a qualified tug pilot. If the club has no tug, any owner of a towing aircraft would rightly be reluctant to let an inexperienced PPL use it.

As far as towing from strange fields, we would do it no problem. If it was a farmers field, I was very reluctant to let our tug retrieve a glider from anything but an airstrip. Bolder tuggies may do so, but get really pissed off if the farmers field turns out to be less than safe. Like boggy, up hill, tall trees, high crop, nervous animals, invisible phone wires, etc.

The average PPL needs experience, to be a good tuggie. For a glider pilot to be called experienced, really a silver c is a minimum. That's FIVE HOURS ENDURANCE WITH NO ENGINE, GUYS. Also gain of height, 1,000 meters from lowest point, and 50 kilometer cross country flight. Local soaring? you havn't really experienced cross country until you have landed out!
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Old 19th May 2015, 19:22
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Thanks for your contributions everybody!!! A little information is seeping into my brain, I think....
A quick reprise of my flying CV - power flying 40 years, gliding 30, NPPL, Silver C and 100km diploma.
The odd thing about my power flying logbook is that until recently I had more years than hours.... kept running out of money! Five sets of exams elapsed before a really minimal hour NPPL.
As a full time winch driver with about 15,000 launches I have a certain understanding of gliding clubs!
And a lot of opportunity to watch tug operations at large clubs like Lasham.
A lot of my flying was with friends who were commercial pilots and instructors, who seemed to appreciate a second opinion and another pair of hands - these hours were not instructional, but extremely educational! Pity they cannot count towards a training total.
My cloth ears inhibit a lot of my activities, instructing is difficult if you cannot pick up the words of the pupil. Learning to glide in a tandem two seater was sometimes a bit of a teach yourself activity. My friends were those who shouted at me!
If you are a gliding club tugmaster, expect to see a Deaf Old Fart on the sidelines somewhere, seeking enlightenment......

Last edited by DeafOldFart; 19th May 2015 at 19:42. Reason: add details!
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Old 20th May 2015, 20:14
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DOF, is your gliding club restricted to winch only? you seem to imply that in a recent post; I know that Camp Hill, being in a national park site, and until recently Snitterfield, do not have permission for power.
I did sneak into Snitterfield once, to pick up one of our club members who landed out there....special case. One of our paraplegic pilots.
As it was a weekday and nobody there, we just put the glider wing on a handy hay bale, and departed.
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Old 21st May 2015, 10:51
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Hi Mary! Currently launching winch only.
There is a PPR power permission, and motor gliders (Falke) have been based there.... a full time tug operation has never been applied for to the best of my knowledge!
On a few occasions visiting motor gliders have been observed to depart with a K13 behind them.... the strip is best treated as a rather one way street, uphill with a Robin into a SW breeze there's about 5-600 metres allowing for obstacles ahead, turning to clear trees takes one over rooftops! Downhill to NE 900 metres or so.... no contest!
More people should try winch driving... flying a glider from the outside!!!
It's kite flying with big boys toys, speed judgement is a definite matter of experience and feedback, sometimes verging on the obscene...
Got to go and mow the grass, have fun!
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Old 22nd May 2015, 04:26
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DOF:
More people should try winch driving... flying a glider from the outside!!!
Aaaahhhh...
The craft of winch driving. A smooth take-up slack. It's quite addictive, and very satisfying to get it right every time. Especially when you had vintage gliders and modern types in the mix - not visible on the wire until they were airborne.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 11:27
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Slightly off topic... I learnt my winch driving on a field with a bump.... a K8 would often be in full climb attitude before becoming visible!
Just like fishing, what we got on the line now then...
Sometimes launching gliders with no assistance..... or signals...
A 25 metre ASH 25 by feel alone was a bit of a thrill!!
About 15,000 launches and 30 years later, every launch is still a matter for careful consideration and constant assessment of speed, attitude and sound effects from the winch!
Thinks - if airliners were assisted by winch, they would need a lower number of engines.....
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Old 22nd May 2015, 11:31
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Aaaahhhh...
The craft of winch driving. A smooth take-up slack. It's quite addictive, and very satisfying to get it right every time. Especially when you had vintage gliders and modern types in the mix - not visible on the wire until they were airborne.
Its fun to watch the novice winch drivers assume everything is a K21 and flinging K6's in to the air like they were paper bags. I saw this happen to the winch-master at my old club, he pulled off as he was going through about 70kts and used ground effect to fly all the way down the field, hop out and give the winch driver a rollicking He bought the beers that night.
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