spicejetter

Just looking for a bit of advice. To cut a long story short I was a member of a no equity group which was based at a local airstrip. However the aircraft was withdrawn several months ago and we were promised a return of our £450 joining deposit.

I enquired as to what the arrangement was in terms of the refund. I was told that I had a £210 outstanding balance which must be paid before the joining deposit could be refunded and that they could not deduct this £210 from my joining deposit. I thought this sounded dodgy but the company has a good reputation.

I paid this over five weeks ago. I have emailed several times and have been told I will be refunded 'ASAP' however I'm still waiting. I have emailed several times now and used their online contact form all of which were ignored. I have also called several times only to be told that nobody from the correct department is available. And to think I'd rather contact then by email do I have a record of what's said.

I keep checking my bank account but no money has been refunded and I have not received any post relating to the refund.*

Then ten days ago I threatened legal action and again was promised my refund by 16/02/2012. Unsurprisingly the money has not appeared.*

What would you guys suggest I can do? Just write off the money (which I can't afford) or fight for it?

riverrock83

First of all I would leave it another couple of days in case the post is slow (if you are expecting a cheque or postal order) and BACS transfers normally take 5 working days to clear (I'll ignore the Faster Payments System) so that would be, what, Thursday this week?.

I presume that you can't call into their office? It is often easier to deal with things in person (and you may even be able to walk out with a cheque).

When you threatened legal action - did you give them a date to refund the money by before you took legal action? Did you say what sort of legal action you were going to take perhaps by quoting the www.moneyclaim.gov.uk website (which often is a way to show that this wasn't just an off hand comment and you are being serious). Can you show / prove that the group received your email (normally its best to send a recorded signed for letter but if they replied to your email I'm guessing (no experience here) that the reply with your message on it can be taken as proof of receipt).

Once this date is past and you have left it a few more days for monies to clear, you are well within your rights to start the process (£35 on http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk when claiming for £450 - see http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.u...rms/ex50_e.pdf for the scale) but the process costs more money the further you need to take it. For example:
£40 to get the case on the "Small Claims Track"
£55 for a hearing fee
then presuming you win, £40 to enforce the judgement in a county court
then more if you still need to use baliffs, etc
Once you win the case though - you can also claim all that money back from them.

Going legal doesn't really cost that much - but it a time consuming process. Calling in, preferably after having booked an appointment (so they can't turn you away) would be much quicker - but I don't know if that if feasible for you. It is up to you how much time you want to use up in the chase.

peterh337

One little bit of advice, from somebody who has been in business since 1978, is that the people who don't pay are well used to threats. Their whole life is full of receiving threats of legal action and they just don't care. They know that most people won't carry it through.

My approach is to write to the Company Secretary or the proprietor if not Ltd (if name is not easy to find, phone them up and ask for his name, and if they say Why just say, with a totally deadpan manner like you do this every day, that you are applying to have their company wound up / are applying for the proprietor's bankrupcy). Then say Thank you and end the call. That will make the person taking the call sh*t themselves, and suitable pressure tends to be applied from within.

Then write a letter address to the co. secy or the proprietor, sent Special Delivery, saying that they have 14 days to pay otherwise you are going for a CCJ. Use the words "CCJ" abbreviated because that makes it sound like you do this all the time.

99% of the time this works. I have had to actually do legal stuff a few times in 34 years.

Must not worry about upsetting them - anybody who lives in this way is getting this crap all day long, and doesn't care. Decent people do care of course but aviation has less than its fair share of those

robin

I ran a non-equity group and was on the other side - someone kept promising to pay but didn't, then when he damaged our prop, refused to pay for it.

He turned out to be a serial non-equity group member, taking where he could and b*gg*ring off when money was involved.

I would steer away from ever operating a non-equity group again as unless you can tie someone in to the costs of operating an aircraft you are going to be left with a handful of promises when there is a cash call.

Being a non-equity member with only a £450 deposit, anyone can walk away with minimal loss - how long have you been flying in this group? Average the deposit by the hours you have flown and then decide if you can afford to write it off.

My ex-group member walked away from a £600 deposit but owed us £900 knowing we wouldn't go through a small claims court for such a small sum

Ds3

Why wouldn't you go through small claims court? £300 isn't a great deal and I know the system pretty well so it probably affects my judgment, but I'd be happy to issue a claim for that as long as my paperwork was in order and I was confident of my case.

Costs of using the court system are really pretty low and as long as you don't mind doing a little admin work yourself then it's really fairly easy.

robin

We didn't do it cos even if you won, there is no guarantee you'd actually get the money and we were happy just to get rid of the parasite

Ds3

True enough, but then if you got a judgment against him at least he won't go off and do it again in a hurry

peterh337

Yes; there are 2 sides to each story. When I was running a "zero equity" group, I had no shortage of people wanting to do that. Zero committment has that effect...

maxred

SJ- I re read your post a couple of times, and I would venture that the company has no money.

The old, and we use it in one of our business's, is pay all outstanding invoices, and get your deposit back. If the invoices are not paid, we deduct from the deposit, leaving a balance that will be returned to the customer. However, no one likes giving back deposits.

In theory deposit amounts SHOULD be held in seperate account, but reality is that they are used for cash flow. So, when to be returned, guess what, no cash in bank, and up to overdraft limit.

You have now paid them an extra 210.00, which with hindsight, I may not have done. Therefore they now have 660.00 of your dough.

Pay them a visit - the door step call is generally a winner, failing that CCJ route I am afraid, but that can be fraught, and is not always a result for you.

jollyrog

Someone owed you £450 which you were having trouble getting from them and you gave them £210 more?

Ds3

spicejetter, are they a limited company? If so, PM me their details and I'll check some of the public records to see there's anything untoward about their solvency.

If I was in your position, I'd send them a recorded delivery letter stating that if full payment isn't received within 7 days from the date of the letter you'll issue a court claim with no further notifications. For £450 it'll only cost you £45 via the Moneyclaim Online website and is very easy to do.

spicejetter

Thanks for the replies guys. I knew I should have trusted my instinct! It was people I work with saying 'well, it sounds reasonable' and 'it's a big trusted company' that convinced me to do it. Despite asking for an update on Friday my email has gone unanswered.

Jollyrog, I was not having trouble getting money off them when I paid them. I was simply paying what I owed them. And expected to get my joining deposit back as per my agreement.

DS3 I'll PM you.