Proviation customer care problems

[manix-cs]

I am also doubtful that some of the experiences posted here are genuine and I have already made this known to Internet Brands in the USA

Quaking in my boots

Good to see some positive experiences emerging, there are bound to be some. Overall though, when buying, why take the risk?

[bingoboy]

Is there a reason that monies are taken with order placement rather than with dispatch ?

[PaulKerry]

That's par for the course with drop-ship merchants.
He's not going to pass on your order to the genuine retailer until he has your money, now is he?

Paul..

[R8BYY]

Proviation

Originally Posted by Proviation

Hi there-

Sorry but I noted your post again and wonder if you could please reply to my PM. You indicated you received it?

I think we'd both be better off if we could handle this ourselves- you're writing about escalating to PayPal and yet I am trying to establish comms with you direct!

Thanks & rgds

.

Nick, it was only after i posted on PPRUNE and contacted PayPAL that you want to establish comms with me WHY.
Please send me the items i ordered. Ps this is a private flying forum not a customer services contact for Proviation.

[manix-cs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proviation
Hi there-

Sorry but I noted your post again and wonder if you could please reply to my PM. You indicated you received it?

I think we'd both be better off if we could handle this ourselves- you're writing about escalating to PayPal and yet I am trying to establish comms with you direct!

Thanks & rgds
.

Nick, it was only after i posted on PPRuNe and contacted PayPAL that you want to establish comms with me WHY.
Please send me the items i ordered. Ps this is a private flying forum not a customer services contact for Proviation.

Strange that. I got a very similar response when I emailed Proviation to tell them I was initiating a chargeback through my credit card company. That is, no response at all up till that point.

[CaptainChaos981]

This is what we I noticed on trustpilot today. I have posted the pdf as alink as the review is bound to be removed soon. but is shows that the MD does not place a great deal of emphasis on consistent communication.

copy and paste into a browser
hem.bredband.net/b851854/com_proviationshop_2013.pdf

I thought it was illegal to take money for goods you know you cannot supply within a reasonable timeframe.??

Anyway why bother? there is enough real shops out there and I am bored of this now. If you want to risk it go ahead.

I feel the need, the need for speed - whoosh ........

PS: HWEST. a paid consultant singing the praises of its client. Groundbreaking!!

[manix-cs]

Check out this complaint
This is what we I noticed on trustpilot today. I have posted the pdf as alink as the review is bound to be removed soon. but is shows that the MD does not place a great deal of emphasis on consistent communication.

copy and paste into a browser
hem.bredband.net/b851854/com_proviationshop_2013.pdf

The communication chain reminds me so much of my unfortunate encounter with Nick, however Sebastian has the patience of a saint compared with me

[Fly-by-Wife]

In case the trustpilot review is removed, I can confirm that it is indeed genuine. Posted by Sebastian Andersson today, with the link to the email correspondence as per the post above.

FBW

[Jonzarno]

I can tell you that there is a highly professional team behind the company.

I can't resist asking: a highly professional team of what?

[PaulKerry]

I keep a close eye on TP and save out many of the negative reviews before the flag-fairy gets to them.

How come the reviews of other companies aren't visited by such diligent and eager little flag-fairies ?

Has anyone else noticed that on the whole, only those who post glowing 5* reviews are "confirmed purchasers" ?

My own review was mysteriously flagged down within minutes of refusing Nick's request (although to me it sounded a lot more like a bribe) to remove it.

It was reinstated after I proved to TP that I was a genuine customer, though.
Sadly, so many of the poor customers who've written hard-hitting reviews don't bother getting theirs reinstated.

I keep reading the same old excuses from the dropship merchant, time and time and time again. If he got it right first time, he'd not have to spend his time bleating about how damaging negative reviews are to a business as if we should somehow feel sorry for him for his shoddy practices.

It baffles me as to how he can still show "TrustPilot EXCELLENT 5*" on his homepage when the truth of the matter is considerably different.

From now on, if I want aviation related gear, I will go to a genuine retailer, not some guy and his wife operating out of a one-bedroom flat who in five years, still haven't managed to grasp the basics running a business:
Don't over-promise and under-deliver.
Don't advertise something as in stock when it is not.
Don't take money for something you do not have to sell.
Don't ignore emails, telephone calls or answering machine messages.
Don't break promises to return a call.
Don't break promises to refund.
Don't keep giving pathetic excuses and "poor-me" sob-stories to disgruntled customers.
Don't blame anyone or anything else for your own failings.
Don't spend time and energy running around trying to defend against or remove negative comments and reviews.
Don't infer (publicly or otherwise) that your customers are lying.
Don't make claims on your website that are not true.

It's plain to see that the issues with this particular "retailer" aren't just a transient blip due to a few teething troubles. We can see a long-running pattern. It seems to be SOP.

You're right FOZFF, all of Nick's responses have been long winded and flowery with little or no substance.

Which is why I now call them "Bloviation".



Paul..

[R8BYY]

Re: Problem with order
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proviation
Hi there...

We have been short staffed this last week. But we're nt chancers. A family business and we're dependent on reputation.

Please, send me an email to [email protected] or pm me...let's get this sorted out.

Best wishes

Nick


Finally received my order from Proviation,Thanks to PPRuNe and PayPal,and good luck to everyone still waiting for goods.ps NEVER AGAIN.

[RollsR1]

And another

I also am experiencing the same. How I wish I had found this forum prior to spending £800 with them on 24th May. As with so many others, my money disappeared very quickly and I am still waiting for delivery. I have had 5 separate promises to fix the issue and still nothing.
I made the really stupid mistake of paying by debit card so I can't even pull back the payment.
I have requested a refund 4 times over the last 4 weeks. It hasn't happened.
I am now following up with a solicitor, Nick knows this and still seems completely comfortable to continue ignoring my requests for a refund.
My opinion for what it's worth is AVOID at all costs. If you do buy, use a credit card.
I work for one of the worlds largest aviation power plant suppliers, if we had this level of customer service, most aircraft would now be grounded and unable to fly.

[riverrock83]

Talk to your bank. All the major debit card providers (visa, mastercard, etc) have a scheme which will allow you to get refunds via debit card. Its not as well known about and it isn't backed up by legislation but it does exist. Although it isn't on most bank's websites, by providing the cards they are automatically signed up to the schemes...

google "chargeback"

[Proviation]

The transaction noted above is well-known to us and the buyer made use of SafeBuy support. It is a complex matter which will not be explored in detail on a public forum, but the buyer is not without our full support and that of Safebuy which ensures the matter is dealt with swiftly without the need for chargeback which should never become necessary. As with all the worst experiences which make their way onto this forum, our failure to fulfil the requested order is regretted deeply but will be turned around and the customer will be compensated.

[al-vin-thechipmunk]

I have no interest in Proviation aside from the fact I *used* to work in the pilot supplies sector and found them great guys to work with and highly regarded by their suppliers.

What a bare faced cheek to start a company in an established sector! Actually, they boosted falling sales.

And I tell you what- only a successful, busy company is going to have mishaps. They've told you they're busy. And growing. And taking on staff. If you think PPrune or review sites are a representative sample then you don't know ecommerce. Statisticians much clevererer than me tell you most happy customers don't say they're happy. Unless they're European. Who are by far the best customers I ever dealt with!

The people who complain on here... From what I can make out you got your goods. Or you were refunded. The company even picked up your unwanted goods from you. All companies go out of stock. Well it's the internet- fast sales, late deliveries- manufacturers tell fibs! It happens! Forward planning on stock management requires an element of trust that things will work out. It is a massive time committment

I worked for a BIG company. It happened to us too. But we were forgiven and not trounced about the web- probably- because of our size. I was never not able to speak to someone at Proviation. They've got about 3 numbers and emails and a live chat. If they're busy call again!

From what I can see customers have been on here and said they were happy. Well Google some stats on customer feedback ratios and that'll tell you something about Proviation's largely content customer base. Then ask yourself how it can be that some companies have zero bad feedback. None. Nada... !

We're aviators- yes. Aviation is our prized possession. Some of you are aloof about it. We don't want or expect our aviation supply companies to become like Amazon. We want personable- want a chat with the guy (or gal) about, I don't know- something flying related. This to me is a good service. Especially when for the most part things then go off without a hitch and I'm happy to support any company other than amazon.

If the British consumer is now perpetuating and regurgitating bad views on a company like this and actually using it as a conversation piece then thank god I'm in insurance now...(joke. Please, don't cruelly hunt me for sport for my comments). They've (Prov) even been on here to apologise and give background. They shouldn't have bothered, or wasted their time with the justification if it results in some of the very personal attacks perpetuated here. This isn't a courtroom. It's not even an interesting thread if we're honest!

So again. You got your goods. Or a refund. You would have got an apology, I'm certain of that. Probably they offered to sell you their souls or bend over backwards to let you walk over their hunched spines.


Because I'll tell you this- when I dealt with them- by god did they pull out the stops if a customer had a late delivery or missed deadline!! Drop-shipping exists! Yes and we all did it sometimes! It's part of serving YOU the customer. Nope we don't go out of our way to help the competition. Yep suppliers want and mainly REQUIRE retailers to hold goods. Proviation's no exception.


Go on other pilot shop websites- they actually tell you in black and white that the item you're looking at WILL, without a doubt, ship from somewhere else!! As a customer- you care why exactly? Did it arrive? Yes. Are you now in possession of your order? Yes.

My wife works for a large well -known department store. She has been known to apologise to a customer for a supplier letting them down. It happens everywhere.
Anyone who suggests otherwise is either naive; simply all about a rant, or is a competitor scoring easy points. And they are dead easy to spot a mile off. I've got TCAS alerts on this thread for sure.

[Shoestring Flyer]

Sorry, but you somehow don't get the basics of customer service. If you can't fulfil the order within the timescale agreed by both parties , just give the man his money back now, today....Simples!!

The fact that you may have a pending order with your supplier is not the customers problem....it is yours and you have to bear the risk of that in any business.

[riverrock83]

I obviously don't know anything about these orders (and its going to be different if custom designed components are being produced for a customer) but my (perhaps naive) view is that reputation and customer experience is going to be more important, long term, for a business than getting an item to a customer.

As such - if something hasn't been delivered, and a customer asks for a refund (so they aren't happy with your proposed delivery schedule), unless it is already with the shipping company enroute to the customer, you process the refund and hold that item as stock once it comes in. You can then build up confidence with customers, in that if something goes wrong, there will be little hassle other than the disappointment of not getting the item.

Hiding behind SafePay mediation procedures (or whatever is happening) isn't going to improve your reputation. It is also going to take up time and energy which could be better spent doing other things.

Note: I can understand needing to take money straight away if using Paypal / Sage Pay as you aren't going to have a way to hold the payment until dispatch is ready. Those "Pre-payments" are being held in a secure / separate way though (aren't they?).

Some lines from safe pay code of practice. As I say, I don't know details of any of the mentioned orders above, but some certainly seem to contradict. By being a member of the assurance scheme, Proviation should also be bound by these as well as the T&Cs on its own website (some of which seem to contradict):

• 3.7 There must be no possibility of orders being accepted which are unlikely to be fulfilled within 30 days.
• 3.10 There must be no misleading claim made on the website or the order confirmation regarding delivery timescale to the consumer. Where any delivery timescale and/or delivery date is stated the consumer must be advised in advance if that timescale and/or date will be delayed and the consumer’s right to cancel must be made clear.
• 4.3 The product or service must be delivered within 30 days unless the consumer agrees otherwise. In the event that this term cannot be met, or the consumer’s right to cancel has been exercised, the consumer must be advised in good time and offered a cancellation option with a total refund, within 30 days, of any monies, including delivery costs, paid.
• 4.5 No payment from a consumer should be processed more than two working days before despatch of the goods or, if it is, should be regarded as a prepayment under the terms of clause 4.6. The website must make this clear either in general or at the point of order.
• 4.6 Deposits and prepayments must be protected against loss in the event of the retailer ceasing to trade or for any other reason. This protection must be provided by an insurance-backed scheme, a ring-fenced consumer account, independent third party holding of such funds or other secure deposit. Deposits, prepayments and scheduled part payments for bespoke products or consumer-specific services should be subject to clear terms, including protection of the consumer’s funds where appropriate, which are agreed to by the consumer as part of the basis for the contract.

[Blues&twos]

Nick, you seem to be under the impression that if you write stuff down it becomes the truth and acceptable practice.
"Deeply regretted"????? So regretful that you've kept the bloke waiting for 3 months for his order and ignored his repeated (and entirely legitimate) requests for a refund? Not very convincing, is it? It's not like this particular case is a one off, either. The many posters who've shared their experiences on this forum have all said pretty much the same thing. No goods, money taken, little or no response from the culprit. Attempting to talk your way out of it is simply delusional.

EDIT: if you're worried about reputation, you need to actually do something to improve it. The current number of "Views" for this thread is approx 17,600. That's increased by about 100 just today. Think about it.

[PaulKerry]

True to form !

Customer is patient and contacts the "retailer"... he might as well bang his head against the wall for months. It would be far more productive.

Customer makes a public post and as if by magic the shopkeeper appears with promises of "compensation"!

... without the need for chargeback which should never become necessary.

It should never become necessary for a customer to call you back more than once. Do you have shares in BT?

... dependent on reputation...

Yet woefully unable to do the simplest thing to actually earn a good one.
Bear in mind when the genuine retailer ships the right goods quickly and securely, the dropshipping merchant (after having done not much more than take a cut and pass on the order) basks in the glow of high praise.
TrustPilot rankings:
5th out of 5 in the category "Hobby".
25th-31st out of 41 in the category "Aviation", dependent upon how many bad reviews have magically disappeared down the memory-hole at any given time.

Other companies suffer exactly the same problems yet the majority of their review pages look nothing like the one for Proviation.

Indeed, most of the dropshipping clowns on eBay perform significantly better. Is that because they cannot choose which feedback to select for their own webspace? Maybe it's because they cannot advertise "Excellent" on their homepages even when their service is only barely making it to "Acceptable".
Perhaps it's because eBay are extremely reluctant to remove bad feedback unlike TP where a reasonably anonymous click of the mouse can make a truthful account of a customer being taken for a complete mug can vanish into thin air never to be seen again.

The question in my mind is why would any company depend on one of the worst reputations in the business? Such that they have consistently done what it takes to earn such a bad name.

Palming off customers with pathetic excuses and vouchers to spend more with you is insulting especially in light of the fact that six months ago, I offered to put you in touch with one of my clients, the CEO of a world-class business consultancy specialising in Internet presence and digital marketing; dealing with some of the largest multinational retailers the world has ever known and prepared to point you in the right direction pro bono as a favour to me. Your response? "I already have a consultant".
I told you that either your consultant isn't worth his salt or you're not paying attention to the advice you're being given.
Six months later, nothing appears to have changed and customers are still so frustrated at being ignored that they are having to contact the payment merchants seeking resolution.

Here you are, still vehemently posting in defence of the abysmal reputation you've earned for yourself instead of upholding your contractual obligation to supply the goods you have advertised as being for sale.

We can all see that the emperor isn't wearing the finest of clothes - He's stark naked and apparently painfully unaware of something known as "The Streisand Effect".

Paul..

[RollsR1]

Reply for clarity

Thanks for the useful advice to those who gave it.
For absolute clarity, I would like to post the following comments which will hopefully go some way to answering some of the good points Al-vin-the chipmunk raised.

I am not a serial whinger, whiner or mud slinger, this is the first time I have ever subscribed to forum and posted a comment.....why??
Desperation is the answer. I love aviation and everything about it. There is nothing I would rather do than go flying.....however.....at 41 I have now reached the starling realisation that I will never be able to afford to do it. So the next best thing is to build a simulator for home.
My £800 constitutes 2 years hard earnt savings - clearly aerospace industry pay is not as good as insurance.
So imagine when someone takes this from you and provides nothing in return for weeks on end other than promises that never materialise. Does anyone else consider that thinking about re-mortgaging your house to try an afford to chase your money through the hugely unfair legal system in this country is normal?

Having time off work to trawl round solicitors trying to find one that is also not out to rob you blind? The time off work itself costing you more money?

I am not after compensation, all I wanted was my money back and after reading this thread last night, it seemed that it may be beneficial for me to break my web silence.......guess what.....I have been offered the refund today!
I still won't be confident until the money is safely back in my bank.

Why do people post negative comments al-vin?...I think you have your answer.

Even though my trust in Nick is at absolute zero, I do not think he is a crook. I just think he has bitten off more than he can chew, expanded too quickly, and just does not have the headroom to deal with these sort if issues effectively.

I don't intend to get into a mud slinging match on here with anyone, that was never my aim. This post is purely to help educate some of the doubters that we are not all moaners out to try and finish someone off.....call it self defence.

Somehow, the shine has even gone from my ambition to build a simulator- maybe it will come back in time.

I intend to only post once more just to let everyone know if I got my money back. I will stay a member however as there is some real useful and interesting conversation on here. I only hope that my contribution may be of some use to someone else one day.
Thanks again for letting a non-flying imposter to join your ranks.