Aphrican

I have been "lurking" for a while and "signed up" to-day.

I am sure that I will get flamed for asking this question without adequately searching the forum for answers before asking my question but here it goes anyway :

What is the best way to spend time in high performance / type rated aeroplanes if you love them and have time on your hands and a bit of spare cash but have no intention at all to become a professional pilot so aren't all that fussed about the quality of the hours?

From what I have seen, the progression might look like the following :

1. SEL PPL
2. MEL PPL
3. IFR
4. SIC Type "Rating" (Citation Mustang, BE90 etc)

Does anyone have an opinion about how likely it would be to get low cost hours as a SIC in Southern California with pilots who have single pilot or multi crew ratings and need a SIC pilot for ratings / insurance reasons, ICAO fights to Canada / Mexico, ferry flights etc?

Does anyone have an opinion about the type for which a SIC is most likely to result in cheap albeit low quality hours?

GeeWhizz

You're name is Aphrican and you use the American language. Options from the Americans? (They will ask for area to gauge what's available to you in the in the immediate vicinity.)

From what you have given: yes do the ratings, the MEL and an 'Acro' of some sort. The more experience/exposure (?) the better. Do it in a decent aeroplane (airplane) too! 'SELs' are the acrobatics aeroplanes (Cap, Pitts, Extra, Sukoi), generally. Get a tailwheel endorsement and learn hard.

You can fly HPA-SPAs at a premium, but if you'rere talking about a permanent and sustainable venture look at the options of commercial aviation, aerobatic aviation, and high-end GA (many here are dab hands with advice on this). They dont all need an IFR rating either

Wait here for the old, bald, and experienced...... Good luck!

GW

Aphrican

Thanks GeeWhizz.

The name is a play on the fact that I was born in Africa (ph=f).

I came to this flying game very late so I am old, grey and inexperienced but have become totally addicted.

I live in the UK for much of the year and in Southern California for the rest of it. Given my very low level of experience, I find the UK's airspace to be too crowded for comfort, the weather not that great and the rental fleets to be relatively antiquated so I really only want to fly while I am in California. My initial certificate is an FAA SEL PPL.

I can't work in the US as I only travel there on a visitor's visa so I am looking for the path to fly at relatively low cost once I have sufficient ratings under my belt. The "volunteer" SIC route in equipment requiring type ratings seems to make sense. I am looking for opinions as to whether I could actually get any hours during the "snowbird season" (generally October to April).

Dan the weegie

There's a few schools in California that teach on Citabrias and Super Decathlons. Those are lovely planes that will teach you some wonderful handling skills. If I remember rightly there was definitely a school like this in San Jose

The main answer is, just get started and see where it takes you. you'll be amazed at what experience does for your perspective. Also, take your time and don't expect to do everything quickly, that's the main issue with guys that have passed 45-50 years old is that they get very frustrated as they learn much slower than they were expecting, it's just a reality of age.

Zulu Alpha

Try aerobatics, and do your tailwheel conversion at the same time

Not sure if you are close, but I would recommend Sunrise aviation at John Wayne airport.

BackPacker

Where in the original post did the OP suggest aerobatics? I agree that aeros is the best sort of flying you can do when you just want to have fun, but AFAICS the OP is more after high-performance (turbine?) singles and twins. (As if it's more fun to burn fuel at 300 knots than at 100...)

I think you need a bit of background on how a pilots license works. Note that the details vary by country, but in general your license consists of a number of parts:

1. The "license" itself, which defines the pilots privileges with regards to renumeration. PPL, CPL and ATPL are the most important ones here, but there are sub-ICAO variations as well (NPPL, LAPL, RPL, they come under different names).
PPL -> May not act as a member of the flight crew on a revenue generating flight; has to cost share or pay 100% of the direct costs of the flight
CPL -> May fly for renumeration
ATPL -> May act as PIC on a scheduled airline flight
(That's the very short version - read your local Air Law books for details)

2. The medical. Not exactly relevant in this context.

3. One or more "class" or "type" ratings. Class ratings are typically SEP (for single engine piston) or MEP (for multi engine piston). Some countries also have a SET (single engine turbine) or MET (multi engine turbine) rating. Above that, a rating is type specific. (And for seaplanes you'd need an additional rating/endorsement as well.)

4. Your license may or may not include an Instrument Rating, which gives you the ability to fly outside VMC limits.

These bits are not totally independent. For instance an ATPL requires an IR, a class 1 medical and a type rating on a multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft. Plus a certain number of hours in such an aircraft.

In your case, what you are looking for is a SIC role in a type-rated aircraft such as the Citation on just a PPL. That's going to be very interesting. There are a few pilots (John Travolta and his 707 SIC rating come to mind) that do that, but it does take serious money. Why?

- If the aircraft is not a multi-crew aircraft but can be flown single pilot, there is no SIC role as such. I'm not sure if you can log the hours if you pretend to be SIC under the FAA system, but under JAA, if it's not a multi-crew aircraft (by the POH/AFM/CofA or by the SOP of the operator), you can't. You're effectively a passenger. (Although it's a lot more interesting than being a passenger on a commercial airliner.)

- If the aircraft is a multi-crew aircraft both pilots need to be adequately licensed. Not just for the aircraft, but for the type of operation as well. So if it's a revenue-generating flight both pilots need to have a CPL at least. Plus of course the relevant type rating.

So the only time you'll be able to log any hours on a mere PPL, in the type of aircraft that you aspire to, is on non-revenue generating flights. (And if the ferry pilot is being paid, it's already a revenue-generating flight, I think.) So essentially this only works if you can pay for the flight completely yourself. That takes John Travolta kind of money.

Another issue is insurance. Even if you were to get your own 707 (like John Travolta) and have a PPL with the right type rating, insurance may require additional things. John Travolta's 707 type rating is limited to SIC only, for instance: He has to hire a fully licensed ATPL with 707 type rating to fly the aircraft as PIC.

The good news is: A CPL isn't all that hard to get, and gets rid of a lot of limitations. On the other hand, type rating exams are typically at the ATPL level, so it'll be extremely hard to get a type rating without an IR, for starters.

Oh, and the definition of "aerial work" within an aviation context is different from "work" as on your visa. It may well be (but you'd have to consult a visa expert for that) that your visa allows you to occasionally act as PIC/SIC on a flight and perform aerial work (assuming you have a CPL) for which you're not being paid.

---

Aerobatics doesn't seem too bad now, does it? Just a PPL/SEP with possibly a tailwheel endorsement required.

Ds3

Interesting thread as I'm only really in it for the fun as well as this:

is the direction I'm heading towards, although I'm just taking things as they come at the moment. Hopefully will have my PPL in spring, then I'll be thinking about tail wheels and aeros.

Night flying, instrument, multi or complex ratings don't interest me that much for now, just want to get up in the air on a nice sunny and have have some fun!

BackPacker

At my club one of the things we're offering is an "Unusual Attitude" experience flight. This flight is done in an aerobatics-capable plane (R2160) and with an experienced aerobatics instructor. It includes various types of stalls, a spin recovery, a spiral dive recovery and a few other things like that. And usually ends with some basic aerobatics maneuvers like a loop and a barrel roll.

Students are encouraged to do this flight either during their PPL training (although realistically you'd have to be at the end of your PPL training, not in one of the first few lessons) or shortly after obtaining their license. The hour flown during this experience flight will count towards the 25 dual/45 total for PPL license issue.

I definitely would recommend you do something similar during your PPL training. Sure, it's not in the official syllabus and is not strictly a requirement for PPL issue, but it will open your eyes as to what an aircraft is really capable of, what happens if you get things wrong and how to recover from that.

offhandblackhand

Without the correct visa you are not entitled to work in any capacity within the U.S.A.

BackPacker

The definition of "work" in your visa might be different than that of "aerial work" by the FAA.

For instance, you have a CPL plus the necessary type rating and act as SIC on a revenue generating flight (or ferry flight) but you're not getting paid for this - you're only getting the free flight hours.

As it's a revenue generating flight, it's aerial work and you need a CPL (at least). But as you're not getting paid, it might not be "work" as defined by your visa restrictions.

(Note the liberal use of "it might" - I'm not an expert in these matters, just suggesting that this may be something to check into.)

Ds3

Sounds like a good offering BackPacker, whilst my club has various options in respect of aeros, they don't offer anything quite as comprehensive as that as part of the PPL package.

I'll certainly be looking to stretch my legs once I've got my ppl, and at the moment I'd just love to get hold of the Pitts for an hour or two

Aphrican

Thanks to all

It does sound like aerobatics might be the way to go for some fun. That said, I like numbers and complexity so I am still trying to find a way to have some fun with bigger aircraft without spending an absolute fortune

@Dan the weegle

I hear you on the age front. Luckily this is just for fun so learning a bit less quickly is not really a hinderance and a recognition of the impact of age reduces frustration. Luckily I am very numerate so the "knowledge" part is not a problem for me

@Zulu Alpha

I am close enough to John Wayne that I can rent a 172 locally and fly over for the day.

@Backpacker

I have just finished my FAA PPL. Some hour building and MEL and IR are coming next probably followed by a CPL as a sign of competence rather than as a way to earn income as I don't have the ability to work in the US. I do not have the temperament to be a CFI even if I get to the point where I have enough skill / hours / experience.

I need a long term goal and thought that some sort of "volunteer" SIC role with owner pilots of aircraft like a Citation Mustang / BE 90 etc when they need one would be something to aim for over the next few years. From the sounds of it, this is just a very expensive way to get a very few fun but unloggable hours. I do know that I would need an IR and a MEL certificate before I could even start on a SIC type rating so I am at least a couple of years away.

It does sound like I need a new plan.

Aphrican

@Backpacker.

I agree completely with your comments about some aerobatic training towards the end of a PPL / soon after getting it. The FAA don't even require spin training which is clearly a big gap in a low hours pilot's experience. I am going to spend a couple of hours in a Citabria when I get back to California to try to plug this gap a bit.

Grob Queen

I don't entirely agree that students should not experience aeros and hands on aeros until well into their PPL... Ok, so its not PPL syllabus; but why not introduce students to the advanced joys of flying? although agreed, only if they are up for it and are sensible enough to realise that this is not exactly what newbies should be doing solo!!! It also helps get over the nausea feeling for quick manouvres.

My very first airex flight included hands on aeros (Aileron Rolls and Loops) and thats what did it for me...REAL exciting flying...I have also experienced aeros twice sice I have started PPL training properly. Once I have my licence I too want to learn aeros and how to fly taildraggers. As many have said, flying should be fun and thats certainly what i'm in it for!