skyvector.com with European VFR/IFR
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skyvector.com with European VFR/IFR
www.skyvector.com is a great site for US Sectionals. Now they have added worldwide coverage, both VFR and IFR. No idea where they got the map data from and how reliable it is but this is truly awesome news!
Some more information in their forum.
Some more information in their forum.
Last edited by achimha; 25th Aug 2012 at 08:04.
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Just realised the world maps too. Great piece of softwear. Not sure I'd plan a flight off it but it's great for playing around with, even just getting quick estimates before properly planning a trip.
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Great stuff.
I had long been harbouring the idea of developing a simple iPad app with all the VFR airfields in the world. My idea was to scavenge old ONC charts and any VFR charts I could get my hands on and do as comprehensive chart as possible, obviously licensing the actual chart bit and having it be used cautiously as the info wouldn't always be up to date. Most regions don't publish VFR charts - even in Europe they get scarce when you get to the southeastern parts, like Greece, Cyprus, Albania etc. And Africa is more or less non-existent. The 15 year old military ONC charts are pretty much all there is to go by there.
I think if they developed this as an app, they'd sell thousands. Even airliners would buy it as terrain awareness and VFR backup is something they'd want their flight crews to have. In fact, there was a Lufthansa 747 captain who did his own little worldwide VFR charts and obstacle clearance prints that spread like a wildfire amongst airline pilots. They were downloadable from his website. Apparently, he's now retired and don't publish them anymore.
And if they add IFR charts on top of this, then they're on to a home run!
I had long been harbouring the idea of developing a simple iPad app with all the VFR airfields in the world. My idea was to scavenge old ONC charts and any VFR charts I could get my hands on and do as comprehensive chart as possible, obviously licensing the actual chart bit and having it be used cautiously as the info wouldn't always be up to date. Most regions don't publish VFR charts - even in Europe they get scarce when you get to the southeastern parts, like Greece, Cyprus, Albania etc. And Africa is more or less non-existent. The 15 year old military ONC charts are pretty much all there is to go by there.
I think if they developed this as an app, they'd sell thousands. Even airliners would buy it as terrain awareness and VFR backup is something they'd want their flight crews to have. In fact, there was a Lufthansa 747 captain who did his own little worldwide VFR charts and obstacle clearance prints that spread like a wildfire amongst airline pilots. They were downloadable from his website. Apparently, he's now retired and don't publish them anymore.
And if they add IFR charts on top of this, then they're on to a home run!
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Judging by the symbology and the errors I noticed, it looks like they are overlaying current airspace data on top of partially corrected old ONCs/TPCs. For example, LKHK is still marked as a military aerodrome although it has been civilian for over 10 years, and EHSB (closed in 2008 and partially demolished by now) is still on the map with its former tower frequency. On the other hand, some corrections have been made - for example, LKML (closed) is not on the map, while LKCB (was closed, but recently reopened) is there.
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No free lunch for European aviation map data, unfortunately.
Most current vendors get what they can from Eurocontrol and then fill in the gaps with other sources.
The last ONC/TPC maps are from 1998, and should be good for pure topo data and the locations of airports and navaids (those that have not changed) but that's about it.
This firm is unlikely to succeed. They will realise it is a huge project and will throw in the towel, just like all the other US vendors. Too much hassle for virtually no reward.
The bits of maps they have done look fairly clean though.
Most current vendors get what they can from Eurocontrol and then fill in the gaps with other sources.
The last ONC/TPC maps are from 1998, and should be good for pure topo data and the locations of airports and navaids (those that have not changed) but that's about it.
This firm is unlikely to succeed. They will realise it is a huge project and will throw in the towel, just like all the other US vendors. Too much hassle for virtually no reward.
The bits of maps they have done look fairly clean though.
Last edited by peterh337; 31st Aug 2012 at 06:11.
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They have been doing this for several years with the US sectionals (admitted, that's just scanning and aligning) and it appears to be a hobby project. Their technical implementation is excellent so they know their stuff. Auto-generating maps is very difficult (what to put where, how to make sure nothing overlaps etc.) and they're really good at it. Better than anyone else I've seen, including Jeppesen with their computer generated maps (FliteStar, JeppFD).
For Canada, they have implemented parsing the AIP and they want to do this for more countries. My hope is that they are going to offer their map system through an API to other companies. RocketRoute's map implementation is clumsy and it could greatly benefit from SkyVector.
I guess once they have incorporated the AIPs, it makes sense to submit corrections.
For Canada, they have implemented parsing the AIP and they want to do this for more countries. My hope is that they are going to offer their map system through an API to other companies. RocketRoute's map implementation is clumsy and it could greatly benefit from SkyVector.
I guess once they have incorporated the AIPs, it makes sense to submit corrections.
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It's an interesting project but post-DAFIF (closed in 2006) they will have the same issues as everybody else who has tried to "conquer" the "me have copyright" world of European mapping.
You can end up with a mapping product which is reasonably OK for the regions where you put in a lot of effort to get the data from the AIPs (in practice it means from a combination of Eurocontrol and the AIPs) and "other sources" to get e.g. unlicensed airfield data, and even then you end up with a load of crap in departments like airport details (try doing a trip to say Greece, using the Jeppview text pages for amusement) except in regions where the data gets thoroughly thrashed by pilots (e.g. Skydemon is getting well thrashed by UK pilots, especially in the south east) whose primary language happens to be the one of the data vendor so people can be bothered to report errors.
This is why I still do VFR flights using Navbox. It has a fairly wide European customer base, established over years, so stuff gets reported back.
You can end up with a mapping product which is reasonably OK for the regions where you put in a lot of effort to get the data from the AIPs (in practice it means from a combination of Eurocontrol and the AIPs) and "other sources" to get e.g. unlicensed airfield data, and even then you end up with a load of crap in departments like airport details (try doing a trip to say Greece, using the Jeppview text pages for amusement) except in regions where the data gets thoroughly thrashed by pilots (e.g. Skydemon is getting well thrashed by UK pilots, especially in the south east) whose primary language happens to be the one of the data vendor so people can be bothered to report errors.
This is why I still do VFR flights using Navbox. It has a fairly wide European customer base, established over years, so stuff gets reported back.
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It's an interesting project but post-DAFIF (closed in 2006) they will have the same issues as everybody else who has tried to "conquer" the "me have copyright" world of European mapping.
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Apparently, not anymore. As I'm told, government-owned mapping information in the EU has been mandated by the new legislation to be available free of charge for non-commercial use.
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But anyone can license the use of maps. It could be Google maps or any number of others - take your pick. Then you drop in the airports and the airspace that you've culled from AIP or any other source. No copyright infringement has been made. In fact, you now have copyright on it.
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I don't have a ready reference, but I suspect it's the Public Sector Information directive.
But anyone can license the use of maps. It could be Google maps or any number of others - take your pick. Then you drop in the airports and the airspace that you've culled from AIP or any other source. No copyright infringement has been made. In fact, you now have copyright on it.
I suspect the problem is that any commercial reseller will want to get the data from somebody they can sue if they get sued after some incident, which is why the UK CAA went to O/S or whoever for that stuff. Having a "VFR use only" disclaimer probably won't wash in reality if you have any assets in the country in question
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Adam, for most of Europe, yes, but some countries like Germany and Switzerland segregate VFR-only airfields into a separate AIP, which is not freely accessible. On the other hand, Google Maps and similar sources don't really make a good topo base. I tried making my own electronic charts for OziExplorer, and the ones based on Google Maps turned out to be very poorly readable. OpenStreetMap was slightly better but still far from perfect. Military topo maps were the best.
Peter, yes, that's what I'm talking about, and similar arrangements exist in other EU countries, including Ireland, Czech Republic and Poland. In fact, every EU country is supposed to create its mapping data portal, some are just lagging behind.
Peter, yes, that's what I'm talking about, and similar arrangements exist in other EU countries, including Ireland, Czech Republic and Poland. In fact, every EU country is supposed to create its mapping data portal, some are just lagging behind.
Last edited by Ultranomad; 31st Aug 2012 at 14:22.
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How could they ever prove you had not gotten this information elsewhere? Let's say you stole all the info from a AIP that you had to buy and that had copyrighted stuff in it. You now put this info on your own map. It would be impossible for them to prove that you got it from there - you could have gotten the info from other pilots, from flying there yourself, from looking at Google maps, Wikipedia etc, etc.
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The "normal way" this is done is by inserting small errors
If your product is hosted on a web server, so all the user can see is the browser rendering, and cannot get e.g. navaid coordinates, then you might get away with using a ripped-off database. But e.g. the plog will reveal them
An amateur can do a lot of stuff but when you get big you can't do that anymore...
Eurocontrol change the structure of their database regularly, to block ripping programs. A friend wrote a ripper for the EAD site, years ago, and it would work for a few months only. In fact they change a token within the URL more often than that (which annoyingly stops bookmarks working pretty quickly). But if you pay some 4 figures for their B2B access, you get access to the database itself.
If your product is hosted on a web server, so all the user can see is the browser rendering, and cannot get e.g. navaid coordinates, then you might get away with using a ripped-off database. But e.g. the plog will reveal them
An amateur can do a lot of stuff but when you get big you can't do that anymore...
Eurocontrol change the structure of their database regularly, to block ripping programs. A friend wrote a ripper for the EAD site, years ago, and it would work for a few months only. In fact they change a token within the URL more often than that (which annoyingly stops bookmarks working pretty quickly). But if you pay some 4 figures for their B2B access, you get access to the database itself.
Last edited by peterh337; 31st Aug 2012 at 15:30.
