Touch and goes during solo flight (student pilot in USA)
Wow- a controversial topic. Who would have thought?
In 1990 my first solo was in a PA12. I did full stop, taxi back per the instructor's wishes. I was equally able to do a full stop or a T&G. The positive thing about the full stop, for a first solo, is it gives the student a chance to take a breather between circuits. The task by the time the student is ready for solo is easy, but the psychology of flying by yourself is new. The other thing about full stops - it is the first solo, it is a special moment meant to demonstrate and develop self-confidence. What is the rush? Just as an experience I think the full stop gave me time to appreciate the moment.
-- IFMU
In 1990 my first solo was in a PA12. I did full stop, taxi back per the instructor's wishes. I was equally able to do a full stop or a T&G. The positive thing about the full stop, for a first solo, is it gives the student a chance to take a breather between circuits. The task by the time the student is ready for solo is easy, but the psychology of flying by yourself is new. The other thing about full stops - it is the first solo, it is a special moment meant to demonstrate and develop self-confidence. What is the rush? Just as an experience I think the full stop gave me time to appreciate the moment.
-- IFMU
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This is not about whether your first solo should be to a full stop! Mine 25 years ago plus was to a full stop but I did nothing but touch and goes with my instructor until he was happy that in the event of the worst happening I was equipt to deal with what occurred with a reasonable chance of handling it. Some students are very competent and confident. I remember 1 who when told to do one circuit to a full stop took it on himself to do 3 touch and goes.
At the end of the day we are all different! But in this thread it was indicated that some students had never done a touch and go before first solo which in my book is very wrong.
Pace
At the end of the day we are all different! But in this thread it was indicated that some students had never done a touch and go before first solo which in my book is very wrong.
Pace
As a low-time pilot I don't have much to say of course, still here goes for what it's worth: the first solo is indeed a moment of stress, if only for the long time it has been coveted. To keep the stress to a minimum, I think the instructor should best make the first solo resemble as much as possible to what the student is used to. Whatever that may be. For myself I was used to doing touch and go's, and lots of them. So when the moment was come, my instructor told me to go off and do two or three circuits - he didn't even mention the T&G's, that was an evidence.
Upon reading this thread, I realised I was sent off solo without ever having trained anything like in-flight power failure - a bit uncomfortable that thought, looking back now.
Upon reading this thread, I realised I was sent off solo without ever having trained anything like in-flight power failure - a bit uncomfortable that thought, looking back now.
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Typically for a first solo, I have the student do a full stop on the runway. I get out, and wait by the runway while the student performs three touch and go landing, and a full stop.
YouTube - ???? ????? ?????????? Touch and go failure
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Regarding the previous Youtube clip about a Bonanza T&G gone bad: it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft, especially Bonanzas and Barons. The reason: on pre-1984 models the flaps are on the left and the gear on the right side of the throttle quadrant, on later models the gear is on the left and the flaps on the right.
If you hit the gear handle for only a fraction of a second, the gear will become unlocked and folds under the weight. At T&G speeds on the runway, the squat switch is not guaranteed to do it's job. You see the result in the clip.
If you hit the gear handle for only a fraction of a second, the gear will become unlocked and folds under the weight. At T&G speeds on the runway, the squat switch is not guaranteed to do it's job. You see the result in the clip.
I remember when I started learning the circuit the first lesson was stop and backtrack but from then on it was touch and goes for 6 or so hours until my first solo. I had done 3 circuits prior to my first solo with the head instructor next to me. I completely trusted his judgment at the time (and still do) and had he asked me to land and backtrack instead I would have done so, but he asked for 3 solo circuits so 3 solo circuits is what he got.
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Better watch out that this doesnt happen to you guppy:
it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft, especially Bonanzas and Barons.
I strongly encourage it.
It's training, after all. Teach a student to recognize the control, identify it, verify it, then move it.
Fast hands kill. Teach students to slow down.
I once had a student in a Cessna 210 who refused to raise the gear in the traffic pattern. He didn't want to do touch and go landings, either. His reasoning on the gear was that if he didn't raise it, it wouldn't fail.
I explained to him that I wanted to see him move that gear handle every time he took off, and move it every time he landed. Get in the habit of not moving that gear handle means getting in the habit of forgetting the gear.
To suggest that one should never perform touch and go landings during training is to suggest the need to go around will never occur during a landing. If you can assure that the student will never need to take it around during a bad landing, if you can assure that the student may never need to use that skill, then by all means, fail to provide the proper training that may one day save your student and passengers.
It's unprofessional and bad form, but if you can justify it, then have a ball.
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Guppy,
It is on page 1 of the Instructors In-Flight Guide for the BPPP program (Bonanza and Baron Pilot Proficiency Program), a subsidiary of the ABS. This is not initial training on fixed gear trainers.
It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.
It is on page 1 of the Instructors In-Flight Guide for the BPPP program (Bonanza and Baron Pilot Proficiency Program), a subsidiary of the ABS. This is not initial training on fixed gear trainers.
It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.
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This is not initial training on fixed gear trainers.
It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.
Of course, it's the students life, and that of their passengers. Personally, I'm not comfortable releasing a student who isn't fully trained to proficiency. That includes light, piston twins.
One solution to introducing a rolling go-around is to have the instructor handle the flaps and reset cowl flaps as the student flies. Introduce additional workload progressively, and perform drills on the ramp in a quiet, dark airplane; no power, just an instructor and student doing blindfold drills to find the proper controls and identify them. Simple. Safe.
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We make too much of this thing called complex aircraft and low time students!
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins
Pace
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins
Pace
Moderator
I have heard
before, but I do not universally agree with it.
I do not have experiance flyinf Barons, or Bonanzas (though test flying a Baron is in my future, so I'm oaying attention).
When I did my multi ride in a Cessna 310R back about 1983, I was nicked a point for raising the flaps just after touchdown. The examiner told me that one was not to touch anything while on the roll out. I pointed out to hime that the Flight Manual for the 310 (an aircraft with which I knew he was very familiar (it's why I had chosen him) specifically said for a short field landing, to raise the flaps immediatedly after touchdown. I had landed on a realtively short runway.
He did not disagree with me, and reassrted his "rule" as his preference.
I agree that while on the roll, it is unwise to perform un-necessary tasks, which if incorrectly accomplished have dramatic outcomes (and we know what they are). But one must still be able to manage "flying the plane" whatever that requires, so training to not touch anything is foolish...
It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.
I do not have experiance flyinf Barons, or Bonanzas (though test flying a Baron is in my future, so I'm oaying attention).
When I did my multi ride in a Cessna 310R back about 1983, I was nicked a point for raising the flaps just after touchdown. The examiner told me that one was not to touch anything while on the roll out. I pointed out to hime that the Flight Manual for the 310 (an aircraft with which I knew he was very familiar (it's why I had chosen him) specifically said for a short field landing, to raise the flaps immediatedly after touchdown. I had landed on a realtively short runway.
He did not disagree with me, and reassrted his "rule" as his preference.
I agree that while on the roll, it is unwise to perform un-necessary tasks, which if incorrectly accomplished have dramatic outcomes (and we know what they are). But one must still be able to manage "flying the plane" whatever that requires, so training to not touch anything is foolish...
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We make too much of this thing called complex aircraft and low time students!
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins
Pace
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins
Pace
Another consequence of the modern day "safety culture". We are all going to end up as a load of wussies. As my CFI used to say whenever I expressed apprehension, "It's only a bloody aeroplane..."
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On reading the whole thread fairly quickly I would like to state a few of my own opinions [ex GA instructor, current Airline Captain and glider instructor]
All of my students [GA] did many touch and goes [and some go-arounds] before solo. [glider pilots land "somewhere"
]
For first solo one only full stop landing [except the guy who did 4 circuits, 3 touch and goes because I didn't brief him properly
]
An aborted landing, even after all wheels on runway is a go-around, not a touch and go [a T&G has a reconfig of flaps and trim on the runway]
I have done touch and goes from Cessna 150 through Taildraggers and Barons etc to 767 and 747s! It's all about the training!
In normal ops [not training] I don't touch anything until I am off runway unless the type requires it or it helps the operation [like dumping flap on a taildragger after landing]
Get out there and have fun! [but find good instructors
]
All of my students [GA] did many touch and goes [and some go-arounds] before solo. [glider pilots land "somewhere"
]For first solo one only full stop landing [except the guy who did 4 circuits, 3 touch and goes because I didn't brief him properly
]An aborted landing, even after all wheels on runway is a go-around, not a touch and go [a T&G has a reconfig of flaps and trim on the runway]
I have done touch and goes from Cessna 150 through Taildraggers and Barons etc to 767 and 747s! It's all about the training!
In normal ops [not training] I don't touch anything until I am off runway unless the type requires it or it helps the operation [like dumping flap on a taildragger after landing]
Get out there and have fun!
[but find good instructors]
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it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft
Yes, you need to reconfigure the a/c pretty presto, but isn't that what training is all about ? Proficiency?
PS: if you are referring only to Bonanzas and Barons then there may be a valid reason (though I can't think of one) - I have no experience in either.
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I know of a pilot who bought himself a Mooney and got permission to do all his training on it. He did fine!
Some airfields are more difficult/complex then the airplains we fly.
Some airfields are more difficult/complex then the airplains we fly.
Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help everyone - I am quite overwhelmed by all the responses.
Now I know that it is not in FAA regulations. I am pretty sure that it is not against flight school or airport rules. I will be sure to ask my instructor.
BTW - imo students should be able to do touch and gos as long as the procedures have been clearly explained and continually overviewed with the instructor. Also, they should have a lot of practice.
Personally, approx 80% of my landings have been touch and gos. My solo was literally the first time I called in as a student pilot (Class C airport) and the first time I ever did a full stop taxi back. Kind of weird (doesn't follow the no firsts on solo you guys talk about) but my instructor was confident in me and I was as well.
Please don't argue.
Now I know that it is not in FAA regulations. I am pretty sure that it is not against flight school or airport rules. I will be sure to ask my instructor.
BTW - imo students should be able to do touch and gos as long as the procedures have been clearly explained and continually overviewed with the instructor. Also, they should have a lot of practice.
Personally, approx 80% of my landings have been touch and gos. My solo was literally the first time I called in as a student pilot (Class C airport) and the first time I ever did a full stop taxi back. Kind of weird (doesn't follow the no firsts on solo you guys talk about) but my instructor was confident in me and I was as well.
Please don't argue.
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Do you want to go off and do a that again?
Strange the different policies on T&Gs! My first solo was done after doing a few with my instructor. He mentioned his intention to me that he wanted me to solo by asking "do you want to go and do one of those again on your own?" Anyway all subsequent solos were touch and goes untill my nav exercises. This is in the UK though. Before first solo I was competent in go-arounds even anticipating when a go-around might be needed if there were 2 ahead in the circuit and I was downwind turning base for egzample. (the circuit was a tight one)
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I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
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In part by accepting a vastly higher death-in-training rate
You may be right but I am sure you have the statistics that you have made the above comment from? would be interested to know those statistics and the basis of the vastly higher death rate in training compared with modern military training.
Obviously civilian and military training are different! military training involving manouvres required to fight and survive while I dont think Joe Bloggs at the local flying club will learn the same techniques
Pace