P1/P2 definitive answer to "time logging" question???

[Bigglesthefrog]

Right..... I'm going to try to get a totally, 100%, definitive answer from everyone (even the CAA is invited) to a real time, genuine bedouin P1 or P2 flight time logging question.

This actually happened the other day and I will log it as the general view of forum members dictate.

I returned from overseas after 3 months graft and wanted to jump in and fly my aircraft. Firstly, and because I like to think I'm a safe and responsible pilot, I get a dual check with an instructor.
We do a 45 minute flight and I fly the whole thing from start to finish
Now tell me, (all with one voice I hope) what do I log it as in my log book, P1 or P2

[Anonystude]

Okay. There is no such thing as P2 in aircraft that are certified for single pilot operation (that is, anything that does not expressly require two pilots as a condition of the aircraft's operation. If you can fly it solo, it means it must be a single pilot aircraft).

With that in mind, there are only three likely operating capacities you can log a flight as (in a single pilot aircraft):

1. Pilot in Command (P1) - fairly simple. Means no-one else in the aircraft can log anything of any kind (unless you hold an Instructor rating and you're instructing)...
2. Pilot under Training (P U/T) - you're 'dual' and under instruction of someone (who, incidentally, must hold an Instructor rating of some kind -- ANO 2009 53(2)(b) refers...)
3. Pilot in Command under Supervision (PICUS or P1/S) - is rare and very specifically for flight exams or tests you pass. Not for a general 'club checkout' or the like.

So, with that in mind, the questions are: a) were you legally allowed to operate as pilot in command (with respect to insurance on the aircraft etc) and b) did you act as pilot in command? If the three month layoff put you outside of, say, club currency or insurance limits and you weren't allowed to be in command without a dual check, then it's fairly obviously P U/T, and the instructor logs P1. If the instructor was pilot in command, then you can only log P U/T as you can't be P1 (not first pilot), P2 (can't have two pilots in a single pilot aircraft) or P1/S (as you're not completing a test or examination for a rating, or on an integrated course towards an ATPL and acting under the supervision of an instructor)...

For some reason, I can't find the references for this any more, but they should all be lurking in JAR-OPS somewhere (1.080?) -- I don't know if that's been superceded by EASA Part-OPS yet.

[mad_jock]

If you are over 90 days the instructor has to be PIC otherwise you will be taking PAX without 3 TO's and landings.

So instructor is PIC and you log dual.

If you had just gone up by yourself which it is perfectly legal to do, you would have logged it as PIC.

Anyway who signed the tech log?

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by Anonystude

I can't find the references for this

Try LASORS Section A Appendix B

[Anonystude]

True, although I was looking for something legislative...

[Fuji Abound]

Who actually cares, .

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by Bigglesthefrog

I get a dual check with an instructor

A 'dual check' is not a regulatory licensing requirement therefore it is not a requirement for the individual conducting the check to even hold a valid licence let alone an instructor rating. The owner or operator makes up her/his 'dual check' rules as she/he sees fit, not the licensing authority. In the absence of a definition, a 'dual check' is not training (therefore cannot be PUT) nor examination (therefore cannot be PICUS). In a single pilot aircraft a pilot undergoing a 'dual check' can only be PIC or SNY. There can be only one PIC so determine who it is to be before the flight.

From ANO 2009 Schedule 7: The holder may not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days the holder has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class.

If during the preceding 90 days the holder has not made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls she/he may only fly with another required crew member which can only be an FI (thus being under training and logging PUT) or an FE (thus being under training and logging PUT or under successful examination and logging PICUS).

[Bigglesthefrog]

Thanks for the replies gents.
OK, by P1 and P2 I meant "In Command" or "Dual".
My instructor and I did not discuss prior to the flight who was in command. After the flight I was assured by him that I was OK to fly and as we did more than 3 take-offs (and landings) I covered the requirement for pax.
Jock, I filled in the tech log, because it's my plane and I followed this flight with a couple on my own (definitely In Command) and actually penned the information into the book afterwards, in the comfort of the flying club, at which time the instructor had gone home.

The scenario that I describe here, which is absolutely genuine in my case, is played out regularly by many pilots who are probably perfectly safe to fly solo. Maybe even after they have been flying for many years, but because they are safe and responsible flyers feel comfortable about getting another individual to check that they are. In our flying club, we have a very nice chap who is an ATPL with huge experience that puts himself through this process if he hasn't flown for 28 days or more. So why is the logging of time into the Pilots Log such a foggy business? The number of strings on this forum dealing with this very question and variations of it show that a large number of pilots are getting it wrong time and time again. The CAA have a vast cartload of rules and regulations dealing with all sorts of minutiae that probably won't effect the average PPL, but on this one many of us are left wondering.
Is it not time for the CAA to come out with a clear and definitive explanation of what should be written into the pilot's log (in words that we can all understand please) so that we can all get it right in future?

[mad_jock]

If you signed the tech log your PIC you signed for it.

Personally if I go over the 90 days I just go and do 3 circuits on my tod.

The reason why its so foggy is because everyone wants to log PIC. The instructors want it because they think its one step nearer flying an airliner. Punters want it for the 12 hours or if they are hour building for the PIC time for CPL.

So everyone wants to play with the definitions so they can log something other than dual. The CAA has written the rules and they are perfectly clear its just human nature means people want to interprate them to thier own advantage. Personally if I was the instructor with you I wouldn't log anything, but then again I have have over 4k hours and day job is LHS in a multi crew aircraft and another hour in a SEP added to the 1200 I have already is neither here nor there. But to an instructor who is sub 1k hours ever hour is golden

[BillieBob]

For some reason, I can't find the references for this any more, but they should all be lurking in JAR-OPS somewhere (1.080?) -- I don't know if that's been superceded by EASA Part-OPS yet.

JAR-OPS 1 has been superseded by EU-OPS, which will, in due course, be superseded by EASA Part-OPS. However, nothing in any of these publications has any relevance to private flying.

[Whopity]

Lets look at what the Law says:

79.—(1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a
licence under this Order must keep a personal flying log book in which the following information must be recorded—
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;

Thus if you have any operating capacity, it must be logged.
You can have two pilots in an aircraft, both rated to fly it, neither needs to be an instructor; if both have an operating capacity they must both log it! This does not fit any of the so called references.
The law does not define the maximum number of crew members, only the minimum number; it is the operator who deceides how many pilots are on board. Bear in mind most of the so called guidance is solely to allow people revalidating licences to easily determine if enough experience has been gained. At the end of the day its your personal log book; so long as you comply with Article 79 you can record it however you like. Of course if you are out of 90 currency you can only be Dual with an Instructor or Solo. P2 as already stated means nothing.

[IO540]

Whopity's quote suggests that a PIC is acting illegally by not logging a flight.

Is that true?

Why would one not want to log a flight? There's a good question

You are an instructor, and "something" happened on the flight which you don't want to be responsible for but you are responsible because it was a G-reg and the other chap was not rated for the type (don't ask me how I know about this one).

You claim to be somewhere else than on the flight, for whatever personal reason.

[BillieBob]

Whopity's quote suggests that a PIC is acting illegally by not logging a flight.

Is that true?

Yes, although he didn't include the following paragraph, which states:

(2) Detailed information about each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order must be recorded in the log book as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each flight.

A few people have been successfully prosecuted for breach of that particular article, although mainly, it must be said, in association with other fraudulent actions.

[topoverhaul]

JAR-OPS 1 has been superseded by EU-OPS, which will, in due course, be superseded by EASA Part-OPS. However, nothing in any of these publications has any relevance to private flying

Although EU OPS doesn't, EASA OPS will regulate private flying

[BillieBob]

EASA OPS may regulate private flying. In its opinion to the EC on Part OPS EASA has, predictably, gone for the option of maximum regulation (to the extent of exceeding the scope of ICAO Annex 6), whilst acknowledging that there is no safety-based evidence to support this decision. The EC and EU parliament may accept this opinion or they may not, it remains to be seen. However, since EASA Part-OPS contains nothing relevant to this thread, the point is moot.

[Mike Cross]

Assuming you have a JAA Licence the details of how you log the time are in JAR-FCL

WRT Whopity he's wrong

(2) Co-pilot flight time
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a
pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as
co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aeroplane, or the
regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

[Echo Romeo]

Just log the 45mins as PU/T and be done with it.What difference will it make now!
I have done exactly what you've described several times with different instructors but have always been told to log PU/T.

[mad_jock]

IO540 its not unknown for pilots subject to FTL schemes to do the odd check ride on days off which would stop being days off if they logged an hour as an instructor. The fact you could spend the whole of your days off teaching gliding (as some do) is quiet acceptable. Your quota is 900 a year and 100 every 28. And there is a heap of rules about manditory days off.

So if you had a prang on on day 2 of your roster and they discovered you were moonlighting for cash on your days off as an instructor but failing to log the hours you would be in deep poo.

And yes Whopity is quite correct it is illegal. My comments on not logging it were in the case of the person being inside 90 days pax currency.

[BackPacker]

WRT Whopity he's wrong

I would be very careful saying that Whopity is wrong in these kinds of things. But in any case both you and Whopity are quoting regulation that explicitly refers to multi-crew aircraft/operations. In other words, aircraft or types of operations that require, by law or by other regulation (e.g. operator handbook/SOP) to have two fully licensed crew otherwise the flight is not going to happen. My bold:

You can have two pilots in an aircraft, both rated to fly it, neither needs to be an instructor; if both have an operating capacity they must both log it! This does not fit any of the so called references.

The holder of a pilot licence occupying a
pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as
co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aeroplane, or the
regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

Only in a multi-crew aircraft can anyone ever log P2. For single-crew aircraft (the subject of this thread), it's either:

• One person logs PIC, anybody else on board logs nothing.
• One person, who has to be a current FI, logs PIC and the student logs P/UT (or "dual")

Unless we're talking about a formal flight exam, or an integrated course, in which case there are two more possibilities.

[mad_jock]

You can get approved multi crew ops on SPA aircraft but there is a whole load of hoops you have to jump through. And only realistically available in a commercial AOC enviroment.

eg Fisheries F406 is a single crew turboprop but operated as dual crew with dual crew SOPS and an instrument fit to match.

But its unheard of in the UK for SEP-SPA