Seaplane landings England legal?
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Are this outfit still flying? The website looks fairly active, but no scheduled flights, I see.
Loch Lomond Seaplanes
Loch Lomond Seaplanes
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Still operating but as they use a single engine van and c206 I don't think they are allowed to run a scheduled service . More a case of turning up and waiting till they have enough passengers as well as tours and charters .
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The one in the Solent was the Shorts Sandringham "Southern Cross", renamed "Sir Arthur Gouge" IIRC. Now owned by Kermit Weeks.
There was a Lake Buccaneer operating pleasure flights for a while from Chesil Beach, somewhere near Weymouth I think. That would've been mid-late 90s.
ap
There was a Lake Buccaneer operating pleasure flights for a while from Chesil Beach, somewhere near Weymouth I think. That would've been mid-late 90s.
ap
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gasax
Your google skills must a whole lot better than mine.
Can you post a link to the law that says in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land?
Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?
To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.
To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.
Can you post a link to the law that says in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land?
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gasax
I tried that. Nothing found
Can you post a link to the law that supports your assertion that in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land?
Or just maybe you could be wrong?
Maybe it's a good thing folk like Adam ask questions on Pprune so we can all learn?
Try the Air Navigation Order - basic legal requirements for aircraft operation in the UK.
Can you post a link to the law that supports your assertion that in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land?
Or just maybe you could be wrong?
Maybe it's a good thing folk like Adam ask questions on Pprune so we can all learn?
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gasax
and
Posted by Julian Hensey in June 2007: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ding-open.html
(The equivalent Article in the 2009 ANO is Article 254(1). The provision remains unchanged.)
I don't know why you were so rude to AdamFrisch. Reading the answers to other people's questions adds to our store of aviation knowledge - we learn things even when we'd have no reason to research a topic ourselves.
Of course, there's always a risk an answer may be wrong.
.
Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?
To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.
To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.
Try the Air Navigation Order - basic legal requirements for aircraft operation in the UK.
You guys might like this.
MEANING OF ARTICLE 168(1) OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005
Article 168(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that, subject to the obligations of the holder of a public use aerodrome licence to make the aerodrome available in accordance with the terms of his licence, nothing in the Order or any Regulations made under it confers any right to land in any place as against the owner of the land or other persons interested in the land.
This does not make it an offence for a pilot to land without the landowner's permission. What the article provides is that the Air Navigation Order does not confer any right to land as against the landowner.
So, whereas a pilot who lands without permission may be a trespasser and may be liable to compensate the landowner if he causes damage, he will not have committed a criminal offence under the Air Navigation Order.
Robin Allan
Deputy Secretary & Legal Adviser
Civil Aviation Authority
22 February 2007
MEANING OF ARTICLE 168(1) OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005
Article 168(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that, subject to the obligations of the holder of a public use aerodrome licence to make the aerodrome available in accordance with the terms of his licence, nothing in the Order or any Regulations made under it confers any right to land in any place as against the owner of the land or other persons interested in the land.
This does not make it an offence for a pilot to land without the landowner's permission. What the article provides is that the Air Navigation Order does not confer any right to land as against the landowner.
So, whereas a pilot who lands without permission may be a trespasser and may be liable to compensate the landowner if he causes damage, he will not have committed a criminal offence under the Air Navigation Order.
Robin Allan
Deputy Secretary & Legal Adviser
Civil Aviation Authority
22 February 2007
I don't know why you were so rude to AdamFrisch. Reading the answers to other people's questions adds to our store of aviation knowledge - we learn things even when we'd have no reason to research a topic ourselves.
Of course, there's always a risk an answer may be wrong.
.
The May 2010 issue of Light Aviation, the journal of the Light Aircraft Association, featured a chap with a Kitfox (2 seater homebuilt aircraft) converted for float operation. If memory serves he operates from a harbour in the south west UK. The Kitfox is a folding wing type, which can be trailered home for cheap hangarage, and the chap launches it from a harbour slipway using a quadbike to drag the trailer. He has been doing this for some time so presumably it is allowed.
Rans6
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Not much help,but I saw seaplanes operating in Norway a couple of years ago,flying from Fjords(spelling?)
It is obviously salt water,but inland so quite a lot calmer most of the time.
In the UK as already mentioned the The Crown have rights over tidal water up to 3 miles offshore,the only bit they don't have rights to is between the high and low water margin,so you could land at high water just off the beach.
It is obviously salt water,but inland so quite a lot calmer most of the time.
In the UK as already mentioned the The Crown have rights over tidal water up to 3 miles offshore,the only bit they don't have rights to is between the high and low water margin,so you could land at high water just off the beach.
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Bewl Water near Lamberhurst
Some seven years ago or more, did have a plane come in for several touch and go then a full stop + take off.
Pilot was going to Africa and needed a pass for water landings prior to the trip.
Also did have one come in on a mayday. Was parked up near the sailing club for several weeks. Local people say that the landing was delayed, so that TV crew could film it landing. Was on the BBC South East news.
Pilot was going to Africa and needed a pass for water landings prior to the trip.
Also did have one come in on a mayday. Was parked up near the sailing club for several weeks. Local people say that the landing was delayed, so that TV crew could film it landing. Was on the BBC South East news.
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In general you need the permission of the harbour authority which is responsible for that bit of water. Outside of their jurisdiction then I presume you can land but probably not do much else if they forbid you coming into port.
I tried to secure permission to operate a sea plane out of Portland Harbour in Dorset. It went back and forth a long time but at the end of the day I could not get permission. In fact back in the 90's they even passed a ruling banning "vessels capable of flight" - after some chap started operating a rib-type microlight from there (looked a lot of fun actually). Trying to get these rulings overturned is like banging your head on a wall.
I thought about Poole Harbour as there used to be seaplanes based there many years ago but by that time I had decided enough was enough and gave up on the idea. Shame really or else I'd be flying around in a nice beaver now !
I tried to secure permission to operate a sea plane out of Portland Harbour in Dorset. It went back and forth a long time but at the end of the day I could not get permission. In fact back in the 90's they even passed a ruling banning "vessels capable of flight" - after some chap started operating a rib-type microlight from there (looked a lot of fun actually). Trying to get these rulings overturned is like banging your head on a wall.
I thought about Poole Harbour as there used to be seaplanes based there many years ago but by that time I had decided enough was enough and gave up on the idea. Shame really or else I'd be flying around in a nice beaver now !
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For inland water such as lakes, reservoirs and tarns there's a twist. As I understand it no-one can own water but like fishing, where Riparian Water Rights control usage, it's the banks that can thwart you.
In other words, if the landing and taking off can be said to be 'reasonable' access to the water should be permitted. The rub is finding a place to beach or moor.
David west at Loch Lomond Seaplanes has to be the UK's leading authority on the subject so maybe an e-mail to him might help.
I used to really want to do a rating until a Norwegian told me how long you last in cold water.
SGC
In other words, if the landing and taking off can be said to be 'reasonable' access to the water should be permitted. The rub is finding a place to beach or moor.
David west at Loch Lomond Seaplanes has to be the UK's leading authority on the subject so maybe an e-mail to him might help.
I used to really want to do a rating until a Norwegian told me how long you last in cold water.
SGC
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Originally Posted by englishal
Shame really or else I'd be flying around in a nice beaver now !
Seriously folks; is one brave enough to make a "precautionary landing" on the water feature of one's choice? You'd soon find out who owned it but assumes you'd found somewhere to take off from in the first place.
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 27th May 2012 at 08:15.
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Seaplane operations
Hi Guys,
This is based only on my own personal recollection of flying history, read when I was in my, (now distant,) youth and certainly not in possession of a flying licence.
Back in the days when Pan Am clippers spanned the world and Imperial Airways operated regular flying boat services across the Empire and the RAF operated flying boats for maritime patrol and air/sea rescue, and larger Royal Navy vessels carried a float biplane and a catapult, if I recall correctly we had numerous civilian licensed water aerodromes and RAF/RNAS air stations dotted all around the UK coast.
So far as I know, there are none of these left, although it might just be worthwhile writing to the CAA to see if there are any left, (no doubt now unused historic relics of a byegone age). You never know; there might be an odd surprise location somewhere.
However without these kinds of facility, it seems to me the resurgance of seaplane flying stands very little chance indeed of ever getting off the ground in the UK ever again.
In principle, it might be technically feasable to find one or two old, disused seaplane aerodromes that might still be suitable for refurbishment into working aerodromes, (and that do not have sailing marinas built on them,) but what the cost would be, God alone knows.
My understanding is that if you want to operate off salt water you need a flying boat as these are designed for the purpose. So for reasons already given, by persons with much more knowledge then me, even if a sea aerodrome was available, we could not just put 'boots' on our landplanes and learn to operate off salt water. The problem with all inland fresh water locations being in private ownership and subject to fishing rights has already been mentioned.
I must confess to being very pessimistic about the idea of restarting private seaplane flying.
BP.
This is based only on my own personal recollection of flying history, read when I was in my, (now distant,) youth and certainly not in possession of a flying licence.
Back in the days when Pan Am clippers spanned the world and Imperial Airways operated regular flying boat services across the Empire and the RAF operated flying boats for maritime patrol and air/sea rescue, and larger Royal Navy vessels carried a float biplane and a catapult, if I recall correctly we had numerous civilian licensed water aerodromes and RAF/RNAS air stations dotted all around the UK coast.
So far as I know, there are none of these left, although it might just be worthwhile writing to the CAA to see if there are any left, (no doubt now unused historic relics of a byegone age). You never know; there might be an odd surprise location somewhere.
However without these kinds of facility, it seems to me the resurgance of seaplane flying stands very little chance indeed of ever getting off the ground in the UK ever again.
In principle, it might be technically feasable to find one or two old, disused seaplane aerodromes that might still be suitable for refurbishment into working aerodromes, (and that do not have sailing marinas built on them,) but what the cost would be, God alone knows.
My understanding is that if you want to operate off salt water you need a flying boat as these are designed for the purpose. So for reasons already given, by persons with much more knowledge then me, even if a sea aerodrome was available, we could not just put 'boots' on our landplanes and learn to operate off salt water. The problem with all inland fresh water locations being in private ownership and subject to fishing rights has already been mentioned.
I must confess to being very pessimistic about the idea of restarting private seaplane flying.
BP.
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I seem to remember someone used to land in or near docklands. He wanted to commute but I think he only did it a few times. A sequence was used in a BBC serial.
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Well, it was only 1993 when Kermit Weeks splashed down and took off from the Thames by Tower Bridge in his Shorts Sunderland, so it's not that long ago. As far as I know, this is the last time any flying boats or float planes took off that close to London. Kermit bought the Sunderland from millionaire Edward Hulton and it later did a successful ferry flight to his facility in Florida, where it still is today. No easy feat logistically ferrying an old avgas flying boat with no gear.
Last remaining Sunderland before her ferry to Florida.
In the late 50's, Piaggio's demo, I-GULL, tried to drum up some sales for the amphib pusher P136 - also known as the Royal Gull in the USA - by touring the UK. None were sold, but it did sell well in the US and the Mediterranean. In fact, Onassis had two of them and one of his sons unfortunately crashed and killed himself in one. Lovely flying boats that I'm personally very fond of and know quite a lot about. Long nurtured a burning desire to own one, but they're hard to come by..
In these photos of I-GULL one can clearly see the Gull water taxiing in the Thames.
By the Tower of London.
Taxiing past Tower Bridge.
For those who are intrigued by the P136 Royal Gull, please have a look at the video I took of this bird when I visited Gull-guru John Mohr in Minnesota last year - the only video I've managed to find on this rare airplane. John Mohr is a Delta captain with over 38.000hrs and does airshows on the side. He flies his P136 all over the place - it's been to Europe, Caribbean, Greenland, South America - it flies constantly. John is a great guy and in this clip you'll be able to see what a great performance this old amphib has. It'll get in and out of lakes the size of stamps and can handle really rough water.
Shame they don't build these today. Be a sweet little utility plane.
Last remaining Sunderland before her ferry to Florida.
In the late 50's, Piaggio's demo, I-GULL, tried to drum up some sales for the amphib pusher P136 - also known as the Royal Gull in the USA - by touring the UK. None were sold, but it did sell well in the US and the Mediterranean. In fact, Onassis had two of them and one of his sons unfortunately crashed and killed himself in one. Lovely flying boats that I'm personally very fond of and know quite a lot about. Long nurtured a burning desire to own one, but they're hard to come by..
In these photos of I-GULL one can clearly see the Gull water taxiing in the Thames.
By the Tower of London.
Taxiing past Tower Bridge.
For those who are intrigued by the P136 Royal Gull, please have a look at the video I took of this bird when I visited Gull-guru John Mohr in Minnesota last year - the only video I've managed to find on this rare airplane. John Mohr is a Delta captain with over 38.000hrs and does airshows on the side. He flies his P136 all over the place - it's been to Europe, Caribbean, Greenland, South America - it flies constantly. John is a great guy and in this clip you'll be able to see what a great performance this old amphib has. It'll get in and out of lakes the size of stamps and can handle really rough water.
Shame they don't build these today. Be a sweet little utility plane.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 27th May 2012 at 18:06.
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Seaplanes and the UK
The underlying problem, as I understand it, is the small but significant difference in US and UK laws.
What is not specifically prohibited in the US, is allowed.
What is not specifically allowed in the UK, is prohibited.
So, I can barge around the US in my 1967 PA18 on Wipline floats and have lots of places to land and play. An owner of a lake can prohibit me, but in most cases they haven't considered the need, so no prohibition exists. Pretty much all Corps of Engineers lakes are allowed, as property owned by the public.
Last Fall I landed on a lake and a conservation officer came out and asked if the lake was permitted for airplane operations. I told him there was no such thing. Was he aware of it being prohibited? At this moment in time, I was a boat. He thought for a while, and asked how fast I would be going at take off, and I told him about 40MPH. He agreed that was within the speed limits for his waters. Then he told me there was a "launch fee", to which I pointed out the obvious that I hadn't "launched". After some head-shaking and joke sharing, he gave up and left us enjoying the sun on the beach.
I understand there is a fellow up in Scotland that gives lessons in a PA18, although he may have taken a break for a while. Otherwise, I can't see any investment in a floatplane making sense in the UK. Waste of money, and they can be costly to acquire and operate.
Cheers,
What is not specifically prohibited in the US, is allowed.
What is not specifically allowed in the UK, is prohibited.
So, I can barge around the US in my 1967 PA18 on Wipline floats and have lots of places to land and play. An owner of a lake can prohibit me, but in most cases they haven't considered the need, so no prohibition exists. Pretty much all Corps of Engineers lakes are allowed, as property owned by the public.
Last Fall I landed on a lake and a conservation officer came out and asked if the lake was permitted for airplane operations. I told him there was no such thing. Was he aware of it being prohibited? At this moment in time, I was a boat. He thought for a while, and asked how fast I would be going at take off, and I told him about 40MPH. He agreed that was within the speed limits for his waters. Then he told me there was a "launch fee", to which I pointed out the obvious that I hadn't "launched". After some head-shaking and joke sharing, he gave up and left us enjoying the sun on the beach.
I understand there is a fellow up in Scotland that gives lessons in a PA18, although he may have taken a break for a while. Otherwise, I can't see any investment in a floatplane making sense in the UK. Waste of money, and they can be costly to acquire and operate.
Cheers,