Instrument Flying
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We tend to look at what we do rather than what others do. As an example I flew into Le Touquet landing with an overcast sky cloudbase right on minima for the ILS,
I turned around and took off IFR just in time to hear a G reg homebuilt flying back VFR to the UK.
I turned around and took off IFR just in time to hear a G reg homebuilt flying back VFR to the UK.
Nuts if you ask me...
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but are there really glider pilots MENTAL enough to fly in cloud, without transponders etc. etc. ??!!
My first high climb was in a Swallow using an altimeter, ASI and a turn and slip (only other instruments were a vario and a compass) in IMC from 2,500 cloud base to Silver C height at about 6,000 feet (well at least 1,000m height gain).
Gained several thosuand feet of altitude with no problem in cloud all the way, thermalling as I went.
The idea was that if you lost control it was either option (a) enter a spin and recover after breaking cloud or (b) pull the dive-limiting speed brakes and stuff the nose down and exit cloud at a somewhat higher speed.
I just flew out of the side of the cloud and flew back to the airfield.
Happy days.
KR
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I agree a lot safer than dodging about at 200feet, but if he aint in sight of the surface that wont be legal either.
I cant believe people try and fly VFR in conditions such as these, I wouldn't dare!
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I cant believe people try and fly VFR in conditions such as these, I wouldn't dare!
It may be a taboo subject in some places but there are many pilots who never get weather data. The same pilots never get notams. This IMHO is why AFPEx has caused such an uproar; it dragged out of the woodwork a bunch of pilots who could not use the internet so they never got weather, never got notams, but until the FBUs were shut they did manage to file flight plans so they could get to Le Touquet etc.
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He was obviously illegal but he would have been a lot safer had he climbed up and flew VMC on top (assuming cloud tops not too high etc). That's what I used to do before I got my IR.
He was flying a homebuilt aerobatic bi plane (think it was a baby greatlakes)
So unlikely he had much in there to get VMC on top and remain clear OCAS over the channel.
He probably took off legal VFR in France and was forced down.
Legal VFR? prob not but VMC in sight of the surface yes just.
Pace
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Mind you, the Islander cross-channel flights have often been seen scud running at an alleged 400ft
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which book ?
I cant remember the name of the authoress, but she was a very accomplished french pilot (Margaret ?) _ someone will know
As for PPL instrument flying, my opinion is that the IMC is OK for cruising in warm cloud with a large space between the bottoms and the green bit, but the only safe option is a full current CAA/JAA or whatever IR.
IMC holders will crucify me, but I read about them all the time....... in the monthly AAIB reports. IR holders would concur
Did both-- the standards and required situational awareness are miles apart.
I dont fly anymore, so have no axe to grind, but I never took my kids up IMC until I had an IR and a flew hours of using it for real into busy airports sometimes with a 757 closing, a load of drift and a request to hold 150 kts till 4dme and a cloud base of 300ft.
Do that properly and you have confidence in your training- JD
As for PPL instrument flying, my opinion is that the IMC is OK for cruising in warm cloud with a large space between the bottoms and the green bit, but the only safe option is a full current CAA/JAA or whatever IR.
IMC holders will crucify me, but I read about them all the time....... in the monthly AAIB reports. IR holders would concur
Did both-- the standards and required situational awareness are miles apart.
I dont fly anymore, so have no axe to grind, but I never took my kids up IMC until I had an IR and a flew hours of using it for real into busy airports sometimes with a 757 closing, a load of drift and a request to hold 150 kts till 4dme and a cloud base of 300ft.
Do that properly and you have confidence in your training- JD
Last edited by dope05; 5th Feb 2010 at 22:58.
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As for PPL instrument flying, my opinion is that the IMC is OK for cruising in warm cloud with a large space between the bottoms and the green bit, but the only safe option is a full current CAA/JAA or whatever IR.
IMC holders will crucify me, but I read about them all the time....... in the monthly AAIB reports.
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I learnt a lesson about VMC on top many years ago.
My instructor had warned me during training to be very careful, particularly when descending through a 'hole' in the clouds as they have a habit of closing in around as you descend.
Unperturbed a few years later I enjoyed a glorious flight VMC on top in sight of the surface (plenty of big 'holes') in an open-cockpit home-built at around 6,000 ft.
Over Kendal I saw a large hole and started my descent to an expected cloud base of around 2,000 ft.
On the way down Warton Radar asked if all was okay as I appeared to have stopped moving on their radar.
Truth was the 3,000 ft or so descent through cloud was in ever decreasing circles as I ended up in a tight spiral dive trying to maintain sight of the surface. I finally popped out into the murk at less than 2,000 ft and Kendal seemed closer than I expected.
The words of my instructor filled my head and I realised once again that I had learnt about flying the hard way - nothing illegal (complied with Rule 5), but nevertheless I was stirred if not shaken! It could have been much worse had the cloud base been lower, had I gone IMC in a steep spiral dive with no attitude instruments only an ASI and Altimeter (less than some gliders).
The expected rarely kills - it's the unexpected that can create a potentially lethal situation in absolutely no time at all.
KR
FOK
My instructor had warned me during training to be very careful, particularly when descending through a 'hole' in the clouds as they have a habit of closing in around as you descend.
Unperturbed a few years later I enjoyed a glorious flight VMC on top in sight of the surface (plenty of big 'holes') in an open-cockpit home-built at around 6,000 ft.
Over Kendal I saw a large hole and started my descent to an expected cloud base of around 2,000 ft.
On the way down Warton Radar asked if all was okay as I appeared to have stopped moving on their radar.
Truth was the 3,000 ft or so descent through cloud was in ever decreasing circles as I ended up in a tight spiral dive trying to maintain sight of the surface. I finally popped out into the murk at less than 2,000 ft and Kendal seemed closer than I expected.
The words of my instructor filled my head and I realised once again that I had learnt about flying the hard way - nothing illegal (complied with Rule 5), but nevertheless I was stirred if not shaken! It could have been much worse had the cloud base been lower, had I gone IMC in a steep spiral dive with no attitude instruments only an ASI and Altimeter (less than some gliders).
The expected rarely kills - it's the unexpected that can create a potentially lethal situation in absolutely no time at all.
KR
FOK
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IMC holders will crucify me, but I read about them all the time....... in the monthly AAIB reports. IR holders would concur
I personally know (knew) 1 IR holder who flew into a mountain during an instrument approach. I don't recall any specific weather related accident which was due to someone exercising the privileges of an IMC rating, although there may have been one or two where the pilot was attempting not to break any rules by trying to remain "vfr"....although they probably could have continued safely in IMC...
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Here is another, more simplistic, way to view it:
If, for whatever reason, you found yourself in IMC would a) or b) give you the best chance of survival:
a) having no experience flying on instruments
b) having some experience, through instruction as suggested by the OP, but not being current
If it was you would you rather have a), or b)?
The debate here seems, for some, to have lost all sense of logic.
If, for whatever reason, you found yourself in IMC would a) or b) give you the best chance of survival:
a) having no experience flying on instruments
b) having some experience, through instruction as suggested by the OP, but not being current
If it was you would you rather have a), or b)?
The debate here seems, for some, to have lost all sense of logic.
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The debate here seems, for some, to have lost all sense of logic.
Here's the right question:
If you were thinking of going flying on a day when icky weather was forecast, or continuing flying when it becomes apparent that the weather is worse than forecast, will you have a better chance of staying on the ground, or getting yourself down soonest, and thus surviving, if:
(1) you've had no intstrument training and know that if you enter IMC you'll die
(2) you did some unofficial training a while back which you aren't entitled to use and haven't kept current but nonetheless think you can probably survive if you carry on into IMC?
(I've only ever read one account of "inadvertant" entry into IMC that I actually believe was inadvertant, which involved haze over water.)
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I expect you'll find that most accident reports - well the weather related incidents anyway - either come from IR holders or non-instrument rated pilots.
I personally know (knew) 1 IR holder who flew into a mountain during an instrument approach. I don't recall any specific weather related accident which was due to someone exercising the privileges of an IMC rating, although there may have been one or two where the pilot was attempting not to break any rules by trying to remain "vfr"....although they probably could have continued safely in IMC...
I personally know (knew) 1 IR holder who flew into a mountain during an instrument approach. I don't recall any specific weather related accident which was due to someone exercising the privileges of an IMC rating, although there may have been one or two where the pilot was attempting not to break any rules by trying to remain "vfr"....although they probably could have continued safely in IMC...
.Also, for the UK, the answer depends on what timeframe you look at. I was quite surprised at the decline in approach related fatal accidents over the last 20 years (some in 11-20 years ago, none 1-10 years ago). I suspect the increase in moving map GPS and more recently TAWS has significantly reduced the chances of a gross error approach accident (although the G-LENY accident was only by the grace of God not in the fatal category).
Over the years there have been a number (not a large number) of IMCr accidents that can quite reasonably be attributable to weather (i.e. hitting a hilltop reported as shrouded in cloud) - This is not in anyway questioning the safety of the IMCr - All sorts of pilots with all sorts of ratings come to grief.
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http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Instru..._Aero_Heli.pdf
http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X4874...AP%2520694.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_01.PDF
Read this lot and learn it.
If you fail you log PUT.
http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X4874...AP%2520694.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_01.PDF
Read this lot and learn it.
If you fail you log PUT.
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Gertrude, it is not for you to decide what question I should ask. On that basis I can assure you, it is most definitely the right question. You are of course free to make up any scenario you so choose in order for you to ask whatever question you choose.
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it's the unexpected that can create a potentially lethal situation in absolutely no time at all.
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I was 'VMC on top' of an extensive layer of cloud, in sight of the surface albeit a distance away, with 'holes' in the cloud through which I decided to descend.
Obviously I wasn't 'VMC on top' in the true sense otherwise I would have had to ascend through some 3,000 ft of cloud with the same lack of gyro instruments to get there in the first place.
So the closing in of the 'hole' through which I descended was unexpected as I naturally didn't intend flying through cloud at any stage of the flight - I just didn't want the detour of many miles to the coast to descend at the edge of the cloud layer.
I fail to see how flying on top of cloud without gyro instruments, in itself, is a problem in any respect?
As I mentioned in a previous Post I have spent many happy flights in gliders thermalling in towering cu without any gyro instruments (other than a battery powered turn and slip) without any incident - as have many others.
I had no intention of flying in cloud without adequate instruments - that was the point - I didn't expect a 'hole' a mile wide to close up so quickly.
KR
FOK
Obviously I wasn't 'VMC on top' in the true sense otherwise I would have had to ascend through some 3,000 ft of cloud with the same lack of gyro instruments to get there in the first place.
So the closing in of the 'hole' through which I descended was unexpected as I naturally didn't intend flying through cloud at any stage of the flight - I just didn't want the detour of many miles to the coast to descend at the edge of the cloud layer.
I fail to see how flying on top of cloud without gyro instruments, in itself, is a problem in any respect?
As I mentioned in a previous Post I have spent many happy flights in gliders thermalling in towering cu without any gyro instruments (other than a battery powered turn and slip) without any incident - as have many others.
I had no intention of flying in cloud without adequate instruments - that was the point - I didn't expect a 'hole' a mile wide to close up so quickly.
KR
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Originally Posted by gertrude the wombat
Here's the right question:
If you were thinking of going flying on a day when icky weather was forecast, or continuing flying when it becomes apparent that the weather is worse than forecast, will you have a better chance of staying on the ground, or getting yourself down soonest, and thus surviving, if:
(1) you've had no intstrument training and know that if you enter IMC you'll die
(2) you did some unofficial training a while back which you aren't entitled to use and haven't kept current but nonetheless think you can probably survive if you carry on into IMC?
If you were thinking of going flying on a day when icky weather was forecast, or continuing flying when it becomes apparent that the weather is worse than forecast, will you have a better chance of staying on the ground, or getting yourself down soonest, and thus surviving, if:
(1) you've had no intstrument training and know that if you enter IMC you'll die
(2) you did some unofficial training a while back which you aren't entitled to use and haven't kept current but nonetheless think you can probably survive if you carry on into IMC?
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you need the attitude of gertrude's question (clear VMC, or don't go), and the training of Baby Bear's (any training may help when it all goes wrong).. some may manage that mindset, some may take a little IR as allowing 2) above. That said, a complete lack of training, official or otherwise seems not to preclude some people from bashing into solid IMC (and let's differentiate that from a lack of VMC), then the side of the hill etc.
I do think that there may be a little oversimplification going on - if we ignore some of the outliers, I would suggest for most people we do not deliberately set off in marginal conditions; equally, some of us fly further than 20 miles down the road, and the weather does not always obey the guessers predictions.