RT Clarification needed!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RT Clarification needed!!!
After establishing contact with ATC, you say something like:
G-xxxx
aircraft type
from/to
position
heading
altitude
>>>VFR/VMC or IFR/IMC<<<
ETA
Request whatever
1) Am I telling the controller I am flying using VFR or IFR rules or am I telling him/her I am flying in visual or not-visual conditions.
2) I understood it to be the conditions so,VMC/IMC, in which case why can't I (or can I) ask for a deconfliction service in VMC and practice my instrument flying without a safety pilot.
Thanks.
G-xxxx
aircraft type
from/to
position
heading
altitude
>>>VFR/VMC or IFR/IMC<<<
ETA
Request whatever
1) Am I telling the controller I am flying using VFR or IFR rules or am I telling him/her I am flying in visual or not-visual conditions.
2) I understood it to be the conditions so,VMC/IMC, in which case why can't I (or can I) ask for a deconfliction service in VMC and practice my instrument flying without a safety pilot.
Thanks.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Happyville
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're telling the controller what rules you're flying under. As your post contains a possible request for DS I am assuming that you are considering this situation outside CAS. In this case, it makes very little difference to the controller what rules you are flying under - BS/TS/DS works the same whether you are under VFR or IFR; with a small anomaly being DS and VFR aircraft not being able to take deconfliction advice that would put it into IMC.
Also, if you are VFR you must, by definition, be VMC.
If someone calls me asking for one of the above services and they don't tell me VFR/IFR, it wouldn't bother me at all. If I really needed to know, I'd ask.
Ref your question concerning asking for a DS in good VMC to practice instrument flying, I'd strongly discourage this, for the following reasons:
1. You do not need to be under a DS to fly on instruments.
2. If it's a nice, clear day in anything other than the back of nowhere chances are the airspace will be quite busy, and anybody under a DS increases the controllers' workload by a large factor.
3. If you are under a DS, a controller may not be able to offer a DS to another aircraft which does need it (i.e. in IMC and through some busy piece of airspace)
However, as far as I am aware this does not mean that you cannot do it.
HTH
Dave
Also, if you are VFR you must, by definition, be VMC.
If someone calls me asking for one of the above services and they don't tell me VFR/IFR, it wouldn't bother me at all. If I really needed to know, I'd ask.
Ref your question concerning asking for a DS in good VMC to practice instrument flying, I'd strongly discourage this, for the following reasons:
1. You do not need to be under a DS to fly on instruments.
2. If it's a nice, clear day in anything other than the back of nowhere chances are the airspace will be quite busy, and anybody under a DS increases the controllers' workload by a large factor.
3. If you are under a DS, a controller may not be able to offer a DS to another aircraft which does need it (i.e. in IMC and through some busy piece of airspace)
However, as far as I am aware this does not mean that you cannot do it.
HTH
Dave
why can't I (or can I) ask for a deconfliction service in VMC and practice my instrument flying without a safety pilot.
24.—(1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows—
(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and
(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows—
(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and
(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: one dot low as usual
Age: 66
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why can't I (or can I) ask for a deconfliction service in VMC and practice my instrument flying without a safety pilot
Because the controller will not be able to see anything made of plastic.
Even on a procedural service into Cranfield last year, a glider shot across the hold about 200 feet above us (I was lookout for someone under the hood).
As soon as the real weather comes in, you're actually much safer. I read/heard that there hasn't been a mid air collision in IMC since WW2. Someone is sure to bring up a more modern statistic but the truth is, real IMC is usually devoid of aircraft that are not under some kind of service.
The opposite is true on a nice VMC day.
Because the controller will not be able to see anything made of plastic.
Even on a procedural service into Cranfield last year, a glider shot across the hold about 200 feet above us (I was lookout for someone under the hood).
As soon as the real weather comes in, you're actually much safer. I read/heard that there hasn't been a mid air collision in IMC since WW2. Someone is sure to bring up a more modern statistic but the truth is, real IMC is usually devoid of aircraft that are not under some kind of service.
The opposite is true on a nice VMC day.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're telling the controller what rules you're flying under.
I've always assumed that I'm giving the controller chappy (or chappess) the conditions I'm flying in - that way they have a better understanding of the help I need....
I was always taught it was a PACER call, being...
position
altitude
CONDITIONS
estimate
request
I'm not saying you're wrong, just want to know if I am!
Cheers
Duchess
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1.5.3 When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'Pass Your Message', the reply should contain the following information, whenever possible in the order specified:
a) Aircraft Callsign / Type
b) Departure Point and Destination
c) Present Position
d) Level
e) Additional details / Intention (e.g. Flight Rules, Next route point)
The above taken from CAP 413 states that flight rules can be notified to the controller as additional information. Flight conditions are pretty much irrelevant and as someone has said before, if the controller wants to know that information he'll ask. Of much more use is wether you are VFR or IFR.
I worked with an instructor that insisted on saying he was..."Inbound Victor Mike Charlie" every time!
Also the PACER acronym does not really fit the above requirement, I find that TRPAR fits much better. Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Request.
a) Aircraft Callsign / Type
b) Departure Point and Destination
c) Present Position
d) Level
e) Additional details / Intention (e.g. Flight Rules, Next route point)
The above taken from CAP 413 states that flight rules can be notified to the controller as additional information. Flight conditions are pretty much irrelevant and as someone has said before, if the controller wants to know that information he'll ask. Of much more use is wether you are VFR or IFR.
I worked with an instructor that insisted on saying he was..."Inbound Victor Mike Charlie" every time!
Also the PACER acronym does not really fit the above requirement, I find that TRPAR fits much better. Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Request.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who you are
What you want
Then:
Who you are
What you are
Where you're from
Where you're going to
Where (laterally and vertically)
Where you're tracking to
KISS = Keep It Simple etc
eg.
Westbury Approach,
G-ABCD,
request Traffic Service
Then:
G-CD,
Cessna 172
from Borton
to Walden,
15 NM South of Westbury
altitude 2500 feet (Wessex 1008) VFR
tracking to Wells (Squawking 7000)
(That from an ATSOCA controller of 28 years......and RTX for 10)
(Personally I think QNH and squawk superfluous 'cos the controller doesn't care 'cos you will be given fresh ones anyway)
What you want
Then:
Who you are
What you are
Where you're from
Where you're going to
Where (laterally and vertically)
Where you're tracking to
KISS = Keep It Simple etc
eg.
Westbury Approach,
G-ABCD,
request Traffic Service
Then:
G-CD,
Cessna 172
from Borton
to Walden,
15 NM South of Westbury
altitude 2500 feet (Wessex 1008) VFR
tracking to Wells (Squawking 7000)
(That from an ATSOCA controller of 28 years......and RTX for 10)
(Personally I think QNH and squawk superfluous 'cos the controller doesn't care 'cos you will be given fresh ones anyway)
I've always found it much more natural to include flight rules with the adep/ades i.e.
G-CD,
Cessna 172
IFR from Borton to Walden,
15 NM South of Westbury altitude 2500 feet
The flight rules are, in most countries at least, a statement about the nature of the flight, and can help to set a context for your intentions, request etc. That is, however, a deviation from CAP413.
G-CD,
Cessna 172
IFR from Borton to Walden,
15 NM South of Westbury altitude 2500 feet
The flight rules are, in most countries at least, a statement about the nature of the flight, and can help to set a context for your intentions, request etc. That is, however, a deviation from CAP413.
