Report on Cairngorm aircraft crash released
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
It is a shame when people hurt themselves by doing things they did not realize the dangers of. I have no problem whatsoever with people choosing to do something dangerous.
Yes, right. Now put yourself in the position of the guy who climbed up the mountain, opened the door and had to scrape him off the flight instruments.
It is a shame when people hurt themselves by doing things they did not realize the dangers of. I have no problem whatsoever with people choosing to do something dangerous.
Yes, right. Now put yourself in the position of the guy who climbed up the mountain, opened the door and had to scrape him off the flight instruments.
I was. It may not be his best day, but the day you see the pilot/person walking towards you with a look of, Thank Christ, on his face makes up for that, tenfold.
We are very good at critiscising other people for doing what we see as wrong, who gave us the right to do that? I have certainly bent a few rules in my time, so far I've got away with it. Any one out there prepared to say they have never ever made a bad/ill-conceived decision, life theatening or otherwise? If there is I don't want to meet you because you will be a boring fart.
As for ATC having the authority to tell us where, how or when, get real!!
Perhaps we should all wrap up in cotton wool, yeller jackets, stay indoors & clipe on each other.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice as it would be I cannot ever see ATC being in a position to help through taking control of decisions. Not only is it not practical but it is in direct conflict with the PIC's responsibilities as PIC. Not Workable.
What I find confusing is why, when apparently in VMC at 8000+ feet, he chose to descend in to the murk.
What I find confusing is why, when apparently in VMC at 8000+ feet, he chose to descend in to the murk.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I find confusing is why, when apparently in VMC at 8000+ feet, he chose to descend in to the murk.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FBW I considered ice, surely there would be greater icing problems in cloud with sub zero temps., than in VMC on top? Add to that the IMC issues it seems to me that was the fatal mistake.
Was it due weather he requested descent?
From my reading of the report, given he decided to leave Carlise, the accident was avoidable.
Was it due weather he requested descent?
From my reading of the report, given he decided to leave Carlise, the accident was avoidable.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the 'mountains' were probably the last straw. I have a vague recollection of the day and I know the area quite well having flown over it for 20 odd years.
Trying to fly there, that day, in that wind, would have been pretty challenging on a decent VFR day. With the clouds well below the tops that day, it would probably have been possible to slink out of the area by following the Spey to the coast - you would have had to slow down and it would have been pretty horrid - but probably possible. That is pretty much where he flew a 360 - and had he got low enough he would have just been VFR. (well able to see where he was going anyhow!).
Going back over the high ground the way he had come was perhaps driven by some idea that he knew what the conditions had been, but of course he was now a great deal lower (the 'mountain' factor) and very vulnerable to the high winds - in the murk and extreme turbulence he was probably a very lonely man.
But as I say to anyone flying here - if the wind is over 30 kts make sure you can get at least 2000 ft above the tops to stay out of trouble - it will still be rough but flyable. If you are forced lower, look out.
Trying to fly there, that day, in that wind, would have been pretty challenging on a decent VFR day. With the clouds well below the tops that day, it would probably have been possible to slink out of the area by following the Spey to the coast - you would have had to slow down and it would have been pretty horrid - but probably possible. That is pretty much where he flew a 360 - and had he got low enough he would have just been VFR. (well able to see where he was going anyhow!).
Going back over the high ground the way he had come was perhaps driven by some idea that he knew what the conditions had been, but of course he was now a great deal lower (the 'mountain' factor) and very vulnerable to the high winds - in the murk and extreme turbulence he was probably a very lonely man.
But as I say to anyone flying here - if the wind is over 30 kts make sure you can get at least 2000 ft above the tops to stay out of trouble - it will still be rough but flyable. If you are forced lower, look out.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gasax the sad fact is he was 15NM north of Cairngorm seemingly having crossed at 8000 feet +, from there Inverness was not far so I guess he wasn't aware of his position. The decision to descend in to it
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Babybear,
You are well aware of my views on authority. "Nice as it would be" are not words I would use regarding ATC in control of my decisions.
What next, compulsory video through the screen, data linked to ATC, remote control at ATC discretion?
May as well sit on the apron & call "Scottish Info G-xxxx take me to Oban please"---"G-xxxx roger, check your fuel, the front tank is only half full & I wouldn't take her with you, she's a bitch".
The future????
You are well aware of my views on authority. "Nice as it would be" are not words I would use regarding ATC in control of my decisions.
What next, compulsory video through the screen, data linked to ATC, remote control at ATC discretion?
May as well sit on the apron & call "Scottish Info G-xxxx take me to Oban please"---"G-xxxx roger, check your fuel, the front tank is only half full & I wouldn't take her with you, she's a bitch".
The future????
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steady on there Crash One, I agree there is no scope for ATC to be making decisions. If they did there would be little point in taking to the air. Seems your dislike of authority is clouding your ability to interpret what is said.
So what can be learned? How can we prevent another pilot from risking flying beyond their and their aircraft's limits? Obviously yet again the current system isn't working. Do we have to wait for the orphanage/hospital/ski lodge to be wiped out before the rouges will take note?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FBW I considered ice, surely there would be greater icing problems in cloud with sub zero temps., than in VMC on top? Add to that the IMC issues it seems to me that was the fatal mistake.
Was it due weather he requested descent?
From my reading of the report, given he decided to leave Carlise, the accident was avoidable.
Was it due weather he requested descent?
From my reading of the report, given he decided to leave Carlise, the accident was avoidable.
He was almost surely 'British VFR' (i.e. in solid IMC but not airways - similar to a G-reg 'VFR" pilot I was following into LFAT - Only some of the IFR traffic were able to get in due to the rain/fog and the 003 OVC with tops at 080 at the time) and started picking up ice (which is not going to happen sitting in the sun on top!) when he requested the descent. It is inconceivable to imagine any pilot sitting 2000 feet above a freezing undercast, over mountains, and requesting a descent into the murk with no deice and no place to land.
Broadly speaking I am in favour of allowing people to kill themselves. either through immediate choice or highly risky activity - that they don't expect to be rescued from. However, I really doubt that was his plan. So I am still mystified. Did he not understand the dynamics he was getting into? Did he do it on purpose?
I suspect there are some personal factors not in the AAIB report which, if known, would provide a much more rational context for the events.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, it is quite rare that a light aircraft when augering in manages to wipe out people on the ground. What upsets my sensibilities, in addition to somebody else having to clean up the mess, is the waste of a perfectly good aircraft. Not to mention our insurance going up.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rata2e
So what can be learned? How can we prevent another pilot from risking flying beyond their and their aircraft's limits?
I don't believe there is any action that will prevent irresponsible decision making such as this, nor should laws be introduced in an attempt to save them from themselves to the detrement of the majority of sensible pilots.
mm_flynn
Agreed.
Your below statement certainly makes more sense than anything I read in the report.
Originally Posted by mm_flynn
I suspect there are some personal factors not in the AAIB report which, if known, would provide a much more rational context for the events.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be interesting to find out the opinions of his instructors as to his flying attitudes. He would appear to have been a risk taker but were there signs of this during his early training days?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, descending to avoid ice is an established action. Maybe not the best thing to do over high mountains, but then again he might not have had a choice. He might have thought that just a small descent would make a difference.
Would you have started a climb in icing conditions that could have made things worse and potentially never break out on top or reach a warmer layer?
Once you're in it, it's not such an easy decision. Best is to stay out of it completely, of course.
Would you have started a climb in icing conditions that could have made things worse and potentially never break out on top or reach a warmer layer?
Once you're in it, it's not such an easy decision. Best is to stay out of it completely, of course.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How much experiance did this guy and many other low time "fly for fun" pilots have of flying in or near icing conditions?......I would say probablly none!!....As I said earlier it shows the dangers of at times flying over hostile area's like the Highlands of Scotland...dangers that in general are well appreciated by our own Scottish pilots...........the fact that the day before this flight the guy actually got lost whilst talking to my sector at Scottish whilst flying north to carlisle and following the Cumbrian coast may also give an insight into the guys experiance! 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, descending to avoid ice is an established action. Maybe not the best thing to do over high mountains, but then again he might not have had a choice. He might have thought that just a small descent would make a difference.
Would you have started a climb in icing conditions that could have made things worse and potentially never break out on top or reach a warmer layer?
Once you're in it, it's not such an easy decision. Best is to stay out of it completely, of course.
Would you have started a climb in icing conditions that could have made things worse and potentially never break out on top or reach a warmer layer?
Once you're in it, it's not such an easy decision. Best is to stay out of it completely, of course.
For IFR trained pilots, you would start with an approach of - don't enter visible moisture with the TAT less than 0 (i.e. climb, descend or divert before entering cloud) if you are not approved for known icing.
Slightly more aggressively, you might climb through potentially icing cloud to VMC on top if there was above 0 or cloud free levels above the MSA to descend to (clearly not true on this day)
(As my IMC only required £60 - I don't know if this is taught as part of the IMC syllabus - but icing dos and don'ts is definitely part of the FAA IR)
Descending with icing over mountains to freezing IMC below the MSA is a bit like scud running at night - you might live - but if you do you should also buy the lottery ticket because God is clearly your co-pilot.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, descending to avoid ice is an established action.
The only way to have done that flight safely (if not in this case legally) would have been
- VMC on top, or
- in IMC in a heavily de-iced aircraft
and in controlled airspace
Looking at the available soundings it looks like the tops were 5000-10000ft, with significant inversions in places and with clear weather above, and pretty strong winds aloft generating a lot of turbulence if flying within a few thousand feet of the terrain.
However, when one reads stuff like
While at Carlisle Airport he purchased a 1:500,000 scale aeronautical chart for Scotland, a ruler and some pens.
one wonders whether there really is anything at all to learn from this one.
Last edited by IO540; 13th Nov 2009 at 07:59.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To me its another classic case of not asking ATC for help soon enough. He found himself stuck above cloud in both turbulent and icing conditions. I am sure if at the first sign of his concern he had conveyed those thoughts to ATC he would have been offered radar vectors not necessary to the nearest airfield but to an area clear of cloud in which he could make a visual descent. With lossimouth radar only 30 miles away they could have idented him and given him radar vectors to fly north, descend over the Moray firth clear of cloud and high ground and hopefully divert then to Inverness/Lossie/Kinloss.
There have been many occasions whilst I have been talking to aircraft you just get that feeling in your water that all is not well......a little word from me asking are you really OK is all that it takes for them to admit "No It Is Not".....so should you every feel threatened and unsure please please tell ATC, we can only help if we know there is a problem.
There have been many occasions whilst I have been talking to aircraft you just get that feeling in your water that all is not well......a little word from me asking are you really OK is all that it takes for them to admit "No It Is Not".....so should you every feel threatened and unsure please please tell ATC, we can only help if we know there is a problem.
