SR20 Diesel
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That is what Delta Hawk did, although on a small scale. They fitted two privately-owned SR20s with the firewall-forward kit and they are now used as the testbed.
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Privately owned is not good enough. They probably fly under 50hrs/year, and in the hands of (given the a/c type) not too dumb pilots who probably can spell e n g i n e m a n a g e m e n t 
One needs to hand out a few to some flying schools, with financial incentives (like FOC maintenance and financial guarantees (penalty clauses i.e.) on the availability) to make sure they thrash them properly.
The Thielerts started to fall apart in the school fleets; private ones lasted a lot better.
One needs to hand out a few to some flying schools, with financial incentives (like FOC maintenance and financial guarantees (penalty clauses i.e.) on the availability) to make sure they thrash them properly.
The Thielerts started to fall apart in the school fleets; private ones lasted a lot better.
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I'm surprised that they can get away with only testing two engines on two aircraft. I guess they must to a lot of bench testing?
What are the requirements to get engine certification?
What are the requirements to get engine certification?
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It is the renter that has the propensity to break anything that could be broken so they are ultimately the best test bed. Moreover an aircraft is put through its paces in short thrift if it is going to earn its keep. You should watch the renters for example who cant be bothered to let the turbos on Thielerts cool, ramp up and immediately turn the engine off.
It is very easy to be lulled by new technology - I got as close as writing a cheque out for a new DA42 having canvassed all sorts of opinions. As it turns out I am very glad I didnt. I could easily be tempted with the Austro engined DA42 because I still believe it is a fine aircraft but every time I am I have only to remind myself that just as the Theilerts they need a few years to prove themselves with hard use by the schools. The trouble is I am not sure how many they are selling into the schools at the moment - probably not a lot. On the plus side at least the rest of the systems are now pretty well proven and the pitfalls are well known.
It is very easy to be lulled by new technology - I got as close as writing a cheque out for a new DA42 having canvassed all sorts of opinions. As it turns out I am very glad I didnt. I could easily be tempted with the Austro engined DA42 because I still believe it is a fine aircraft but every time I am I have only to remind myself that just as the Theilerts they need a few years to prove themselves with hard use by the schools. The trouble is I am not sure how many they are selling into the schools at the moment - probably not a lot. On the plus side at least the rest of the systems are now pretty well proven and the pitfalls are well known.
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What are the requirements to get engine certification?
Theilerts they need a few years to prove themselves with hard use by the schools. The trouble is I am not sure how many they are selling into the schools at the moment - probably not a lot.
Anyway, their sales are very low now. I saw some figs the other day - about 30 in 2009.
On the plus side at least the rest of the systems are now pretty well proven and the pitfalls are well known.
They need to thicken the tin on the tinplate brackets a little...
Attention to detail is very cheap... but most don't know how to do it. In my business, we pay say 20p for a moulding. Most people would stick a 5p label on it. We stick a high quality 40p label on it - it sets it apart in quality (and doesn't come off when the sun shines on it Diamond need to learn that.
Last edited by IO540; 9th Mar 2010 at 15:13.
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It's not just the two Cirri that you have to take into consideration. That is important for the Cirrus STC.
They operate this engine now already for some time in the experimental/self-build class. OK, it is the 160 HP version but still.
I don't know the exact number of ACFT flying with a Delta Hawk already but I think it is save to say they already have a significant amount of experience...
I'm not an expert, but I sure would love to fly a SR20 up to FL180 + @ 1000 FPM. I couldn't even care if it was slower than a SR22...
They operate this engine now already for some time in the experimental/self-build class. OK, it is the 160 HP version but still.
I don't know the exact number of ACFT flying with a Delta Hawk already but I think it is save to say they already have a significant amount of experience...
I'm not an expert, but I sure would love to fly a SR20 up to FL180 + @ 1000 FPM. I couldn't even care if it was slower than a SR22...
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You should watch the renters for example who cant be bothered to let the turbos on Thielerts cool, ramp up and immediately turn the engine off.
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I don't know the exact number of ACFT flying with a Delta Hawk already but I think it is save to say they already have a significant amount of experience...
I don't think Deltahawk have a single customer engine flying.
Dave.
FWIW I have one of the six RV-9A's flying with a Wilksch diesel. I love it; 120 kts on 16 lts/hr.
I don't think Deltahawk have a single customer engine flying.
Dave.
FWIW I have one of the six RV-9A's flying with a Wilksch diesel. I love it; 120 kts on 16 lts/hr.
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Originally Posted by BackPacker
I've heard a contrary opinion (here, no less) from someone who heard somebody else doing testing on this, and who found out that the turbos are at their coolest right after landing
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"FWIW I have one of the six RV-9A's flying with a Wilksch diesel. I love it; 120 kts on 16 lts/hr."
Please tell us more I heard development on this engine had stopped
The WAM-120 engine is still available but is not being actively marketed.
Development work is continuing on a "bored out" version with a revised combustion system which is likely to develop 140 hp. For certified aircraft Wilksch are hoping that the proposed ESA 1 and 2 standards will provide them with an entry route into the certified market.
Dave
Please tell us more I heard development on this engine had stopped
The WAM-120 engine is still available but is not being actively marketed.
Development work is continuing on a "bored out" version with a revised combustion system which is likely to develop 140 hp. For certified aircraft Wilksch are hoping that the proposed ESA 1 and 2 standards will provide them with an entry route into the certified market.
Dave
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The Delta Hawk looks great on paper, but again: not ONE engine delivered to the customers and this very same thread can be found here:
Deltahawkengines - VAF Forums
Funnily enough that thread was about deltahawks in 2005 and it seems that DH already promoted then to take downpayments and orders. Here is what they said in 2005:
"The DeltaHawk engine is in production with the first non certified 160HP engines available by May 2005, this first batch have all been sold.
The 200HP will be available by October 2005, however all production until December 2005 has been allocated to buyers.
Currently you will need to allow up to 6 months between a signed purchase agreement and the availability of the production engine.
We hope that within the next 12mths that the engine will obtain it's FAA certification."
Deltahawkengines - VAF Forums
Funnily enough that thread was about deltahawks in 2005 and it seems that DH already promoted then to take downpayments and orders. Here is what they said in 2005:
"The DeltaHawk engine is in production with the first non certified 160HP engines available by May 2005, this first batch have all been sold.
The 200HP will be available by October 2005, however all production until December 2005 has been allocated to buyers.
Currently you will need to allow up to 6 months between a signed purchase agreement and the availability of the production engine.
We hope that within the next 12mths that the engine will obtain it's FAA certification."
Last edited by rokami93; 9th Mar 2010 at 22:49. Reason: improved link
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The futur is Diesel
Any 4 stroke Diesel Aero engine is bound to fail, either being to low a power density ie to heavy like the SMA and to many harmonics and complicated, the Theilert. In a 4 stroke 4cyl the prop drives the engine 30% of the time, very hard on the prop. 3 or more cyl externaly scavenged 2 stroke has no reverse torque, smaller torque pulses , makes a far better engine.
The Delta Hawk has been in developmet for 10 years and they are being sold to the US armed forces for UAVs and Deltahawk has had one in the back of a Rutan Long Easy for years. It is well designed, no gear box or electronics and the 200hp is the same weight as a 200hp Lycoming IO360.
The German Zoche 8 cyl 2 stroke radial is the best at the 300hp (equivalent to a 16cyl 4 stroke) is the same weight as the IO360, but I think it's a scam to get EU development grants.
There are about 3, 4 strokes and 7, 2 strokes Aero Diesels in varying stages of development.
The other things to consider is fuel supply, Mogas does not have the quality control standards or the right specifications for serious aviation use and Avgas is difficult to find world wide and the US could ban it, plus the lead additive is only made by one UK company for the world, if they go bust, what then. So Avtur it has to be, which means Diesel.
The SR20 is a good example of what a diesel can do for performance. Range increase for the same fuel load or reduce fuel/weight for the same range, which increases the pay load. Better high altitude performance as well.
Infact the Diesel SR20 is better than both SR22 models, only just down on climb rate and max cruise, and they 22 was the best selling light aircraft last year.
So I think the Diesel SR20 will be the most modern aircraft flying once on the market.
The Delta Hawk has been in developmet for 10 years and they are being sold to the US armed forces for UAVs and Deltahawk has had one in the back of a Rutan Long Easy for years. It is well designed, no gear box or electronics and the 200hp is the same weight as a 200hp Lycoming IO360.
The German Zoche 8 cyl 2 stroke radial is the best at the 300hp (equivalent to a 16cyl 4 stroke) is the same weight as the IO360, but I think it's a scam to get EU development grants.
There are about 3, 4 strokes and 7, 2 strokes Aero Diesels in varying stages of development.
The other things to consider is fuel supply, Mogas does not have the quality control standards or the right specifications for serious aviation use and Avgas is difficult to find world wide and the US could ban it, plus the lead additive is only made by one UK company for the world, if they go bust, what then. So Avtur it has to be, which means Diesel.
The SR20 is a good example of what a diesel can do for performance. Range increase for the same fuel load or reduce fuel/weight for the same range, which increases the pay load. Better high altitude performance as well.
Infact the Diesel SR20 is better than both SR22 models, only just down on climb rate and max cruise, and they 22 was the best selling light aircraft last year.
So I think the Diesel SR20 will be the most modern aircraft flying once on the market.
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I very much hope that the deltahawk engine meets the paper spec, for those who don't like plastic just look at what the delta hawk would do for the Robin DR400.
However I have yet to see one of these oil burners that is reliable to make it worth the trouble of taking out the Lycoming
However I have yet to see one of these oil burners that is reliable to make it worth the trouble of taking out the Lycoming
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Originally Posted by horizon flyer
The Delta Hawk has been in developmet for 10 years and they are being sold to the US armed forces for UAVs and Deltahawk has had one in the back of a Rutan Long Easy for years.
Originally Posted by horizon flyer
There are about 3, 4 strokes and 7, 2 strokes Aero Diesels in varying stages of development.
Originally Posted by horizon flyer
The SR20 is a good example of what a diesel can do for performance. Range increase for the same fuel load or reduce fuel/weight for the same range, which increases the pay load. Better high altitude performance as well.
Infact the Diesel SR20 is better than both SR22 models, only just down on climb rate and max cruise, and they 22 was the best selling light aircraft last year.
Infact the Diesel SR20 is better than both SR22 models, only just down on climb rate and max cruise, and they 22 was the best selling light aircraft last year.
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rokami93 they have one in a 172 plus a Rutan Veryeasy and in a SR20 that out performs the avgas SR20, so it is flying, just seems to be taking a long time to certify.
Note the Twin with the highest sales is the DA42 with diesel which are not Thielerts any more, Diamond makes them for it's self.
Note the Twin with the highest sales is the DA42 with diesel which are not Thielerts any more, Diamond makes them for it's self.
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Fly4Business I think I googled it and it came up, was wondering how Delta Hawk was doing. I believe they are the best hope for replacing the bloody horrible Lycoming 360 which if you know anything about engineering is a mess.