Flying IMC out of CAS now dangerous?

[Pace]

Was flying last week in a twin from a south East Airport to a North West airport.
Filed IFR, FL 100 and at first all fine. Flew a SID and then was vectored with radar headings at FL100. First to the north east, then to the west and then to the south west.

Joked that at this rate we would be making a huge oval back to where we started. Complaining that we were going in the wrong direction we were given direct to destination and dumped south east of Brize with the message contact London Info 124.75.

We were now on top of an overcast (just) at FL100 with 100 nm plus to go and were offered a basic service

Below the aircraft there were multiple layers to a cloubase of around 2000 feet and fairly solid on the way down.

1715 and Brize were shut. Brize the superb radar service which was always open and needed by us guys in IMC outside CAS.They used to cover a lot of the mass of uncontrolled airspace to the North and west. Their services are sadly NO more.

Shawbury closed.

At 30 miles to destination (a small airfield) told London info of our descent intention. " Nothing known ahead" and given the regional.

Passing 6000 feet in cloud one solitary glider flashed past the wing in IMC on this windy cloudy day too close the worst nightmare in the russian roulette out of CAS with no radar cover.

This and the new ATC services is streamlining the system? or your now on your own outside CAS? Or are we even wanted in CAS? Beware we are forgotten in GA and its dangerous in the so called big sky.

Pace

[BEagle]

Are you going to submit a CHIRP?

I've found that either Coventry or Birmingham are very helpful - Coventry in particular once gave me an excellent RIS (as it was then) when the weather-guesser's forecast proved incorrect.

Brize is never 'closed', but with the RAF's commitments and manning levels of today, the level of service outside normal hours is limited by controller workload. What frequency did you call them on - did you get any answer at all?

[IO540]

Pace - was this an IFR flight filed via Eurocontrol, with London Control your first contact unit?

If so, you should not have been dumped out of CAS (and thus lost the LC service) unless you asked them to do this.

If however your destination is not in CAS (e.g. Biggin which is Class G) they obviously have to drop you out of CAS somewhere... the question is whether this was too early for you. OCAS airports don't have a STAR so a passage of Class G cannot be avoided.

Some pilots have been dropped out much too early, leaving them to fly OCAS under the LTMA at 2400ft, in IMC, with no radar service. The recommended action in this case is to file a report. LC is not supposed to do that.

[Mike Parsons]

What was the glider doing in IMC!?

[englishal]

Due to some crazy rules, gliders are allowed in IMC without the same sort regulation that powered aeroplanes have to have.

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, gliders are allowed in IMC.

I probably did a similiar journey last week, in similiar conditions at a similiar time.

Birmingham will indeed provide an excellent service. Brise never close and you still need to ask for a transit when their LARS is closed. Easy to be caught out with this.

The problem with trips OCAS, or being dumped, is maintaining above the cloud. Often you will be forced down by the base of CAS into IMC otherwise you obvioulsy stay on top until your destination and at least hope for some protection in their procedure or if letting down without a procedure through good knowledge of where any gliders might be.

My own view these days is to avoid IMC outside CAS unless there is no alternative. Coming home it was interesting to hear the CAT asking for plenty of heading changes to avoid weather whilst maintaining below the base and skirting around the heaviest down poors with the strikefinder doing its job.

The trouble with this country is increasingly everything seems to shut around 18-00 - you can forget getting much of a service from many of the LARS units up narth. I suppose the only good thing is most people also seem to stop flying around that time so the traffic load is also down.

Bring on the day when gliders are required to carry a transponder if flying in or near cloud - non transponder should be for VMC, well clear of cloud, - hat coat etc.

[IO540]

Transponders should be mandatory anyway, and definitely for IMC.

I suspect Pace's problem is the old business where London Control will absolutely not provide a service OCAS, even when they could in workload terms.

In general, gliders in IMC are not a problem because in mucky OVC006 kind of weather there is no lift. They are a problem in the higher cloudbases e.g. N of Brize, on warm summer days.

[kestrel539]

"They are a problem in the higher cloudbases e.g. N of Brize, on warm summer days. "

To whom? and why

[Cows getting bigger]

At FL100 you could have tried London Military for a middle airspace service (UK AIP ENR 1.6.4 refers). They're normally a very accommodating bunch of individuals.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by kestrel539

"They are a problem in the higher cloudbases e.g. N of Brize, on warm summer days. "

To whom? and why

Maybe to people operating in IMC (looking at gauges not out the window) not wishing to have glider bits in the propellers/turbines and lighter aircraft not wishing to plummet to the earth watching the glider pilot hit the silk?

[ShyTorque]

This and the new ATC services is streamlining the system? or your now on your own outside CAS? Or are we even wanted in CAS? Beware we are forgotten in GA and its dangerous in the so called big sky.

Pace, some of us have become concerned about the gradual decline in services OCAS for years. The LARS system now falls far below the standards of coverage originally provided, especially in view of the closure of some military units under the so-called "peace dividend". Having said that, we are now better off in the London area, thanks to the increased area of service provided by Farnboroughs North and East.

Brize is never 'closed', but with the RAF's commitments and manning levels of today, the level of service outside normal hours is limited by controller workload. What frequency did you call them on - did you get any answer at all?

Beagle, Brize LARS has recently been NOTAM'd as 0900 to 1700 only.

Q) EGTT/QSEAH/IV/B/E/000/095/5145N00135W060
FROM: 09/04/02 06:19 TO: PERM
E) BRIZE NORTON LOWER AIRSPACE RADAR ADVISORY SERVICE (LARS) AMEND
AVAILABILITY TO READ 0900-1700 WINTER (SUMMER 1 HR EARLIER)
AIP ENR 1-6-3-3 REFERS

Here's another retrograde step:

Q) EGTT/QSEAH/IV/B/E/000/095/5244N00038W030
FROM: 08/09/06 13:56 TO: 09/06/11 12:00 EST
E) COTTESMORE LARS HR MON-THU 0730-1700, FRI 0730-1130 OR UNTIL CEASE
FLYING AT COTTESMORE (EGXJ) OR WITTERING (EGXT) WHICHEVER IS LATER.

Fact is, more and more areas of UK are being left with no LARS coverage.

Time for all aircraft (including gliders) to be fitted with Mode C and all those above a certain size also with TCAS or similar?

Brise never close and you still need to ask for a transit when their LARS is closed. Easy to be caught out with this.

Not at FL60 though.

[Pace]

suspect Pace's problem is the old business where London Control will absolutely not provide a service OCAS, even when they could in workload terms.

The glider confrontation was not the radar service problem as it happened on the limit of what would have been The Brize range and in the descent. I did the same flight in the morning and had both routes airways for most of the trip as planned.

I mentioned the glider confrontation to warn others to be aware of flying IMC out of radar cover and communication with other air users.The big sky is not always that big.

The evening return involved a lot of radar steers which turned me south west bound and way off track and the intended routing and then to be literally dumped for a basic service with London info on top of solid with 100 nm to go with a trip which was filed as an IFR and airways for 90% of the route was surprising.

London Mil will be the choice in future on this routing. I was not aware that there is still a service from Brize after 1700 since a couple of months ago?

Thanks for some of the info posted as its useful with all the changes and streamlining in the atc system at present.

Pace

[shortstripper]

If you are outside CAS you are on your own to a certain extent surely? If you want certain separation in IMC then stay within CAS.

Gliders have been allowed to cloud fly outside of CAS for many years and you should know that?

Not ment to sound inflammitory although reading it back it does sound that way. It's just that every now and then this comes up and the glider pilot is seen as the bad guy with everyone wanting to curtail his/her freedom. If you want the protection of CAS then surely you can stay within it. Outside it's open and long may it remain that way.

SS

PS ... Flippin "a" key keeps sticking! grrrrrrr

[Jumbo Driver]

Originally Posted by shortstripper

PS ... Flippin "a" key keeps sticking! grrrrrrr

... and the "r" key, perhaps ...


JD

[shortstripper]

Yep, that one too!

[Fuji Abound]

Not ment to sound inflammitory although reading it back it does sound that way. It's just that every now and then this comes up and the glider pilot is seen as the bad guy with everyone wanting to curtail his/her freedom. If you want the protection of CAS then surely you can stay within it. Outside it's open and long may it remain that way.

This implies everyone outside CAS is on an equal footing. They are not, and that is why I would disagree with you.

Gliders, generally operate in a area, and know what other gliders are operating in the same area,

Gliders often carry FLARM, a system unique to their own fraternity,

Glider pilots usually wear a chute,

Gliders are more difficult to see,

Gliders are poor primary radar targets.

Now I have nothing against gliders, but gliding often requires glider pilots place themselves in a position likely to be of greatest threat to other airspace users and in doing so they do nothing to ensure their conspicuity to other users - sorry chaps but if you are gliding in IMC or in an out of a broken cloud I think you are lacking in consideration for the powered users of the same airspace if you are not transponding.

I see no justifiable reason for gliders having any special priviliges; the sooner there is a mandatory requirment for gliders to carry transponders, unless they are clear of cloud in VMC, the better.

You are a hazard to everyone else and that is not fair!

[Pace]

Not ment to sound inflammitory although reading it back it does sound that way. It's just that every now and then this comes up and the glider pilot is seen as the bad guy with everyone wanting to curtail his/her freedom. If you want the protection of CAS then surely you can stay within it. Outside it's open and long may it remain that way.

SS

Not pointing a finger at gliders as they have as much right to fly.

There are unique hazards that gliders pose but thats another subject we can discuss which IMO puts a question mark on them flying IMC.

regretfully there are many locations in the UK where flight completely in CAS from takeoff to TD is impossible. Even with Airlines this is the case.

I posted a while back concerning LondonDerry where the approaches are procedural and there is no RAS yet many commercial flights operate into there out of CAS. The same goes for many other UK Locations.

With the restriction on operating hours on what we have relied on ie Military RAS the risks of collision in the Big Sky are inreasing and maybe we should all have transponders and Ticas flying in IMC out of CAS so we can look out for each other. As radar services decline so does our safety.

The big sky arguement is made for the small chance of collision but in this case we passed in no more than 50 metres of each other solid IMC.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

The big sky arguement is made for the small chance of collision but in this case we passed in no more than 50 metres of each other solid IMC.

Obvioulsy not that "solid" then.

[Pace]

Obvioulsy not that "solid" then.

Drive a car or land a plane in 200 metres of fog then 50 metres of fog.50 metres is fairly dense although not "cannot see the wingtip dense"
Fuji have sent you a PM

Pace

[shortstripper]

I can sympathise with what you are saying Pace. After all, until last week I hadn't flown a glider for nearly 20 years, and have done the IMC ... so I'm not just seeing it from the glider viewpoint. However, despite your near miss, I still think that you cannot expect a huge level of controlled separation outside CAS. There are no garauntees after all, and no implication of separation even between transponder equipped IFR craft (Not all TCAS are equal, even if you are so equipped).

I also think the title is misleading. It's not a "new danger" as it's been this way all of my 22 years of flying (with few "if any?" collisions between gliders and GA in IMC).

I'm not convinced by the "mke everyone have transponders and TCAS" argument, and think it would be the death of lot of grass roots type flyers. You might think that it would mean complete safety from risk, but I remain to be convinced!

SS