Say you run a group syndicate for a small aircarft and one of the members unknowingly uses it when the CofA had expired. Do you have any responsibilty or are you expected to report it etc?
I think your maintenance organisation is supposed to report to the CAA if they find out. In my experience must MOs wouldn't unless you're a persistent offender and a bad payer.
I think the CAA would look upon it as a pilot responsibility. If you had told the pilot it would be OK, then things could get interesting. Alternatively, assuming you are not very happy about your 'mate' flying the aircraft, there's nothing stopping you reporting it to the CAA but I'm guessing they would look at the whole operation with a very fine comb; have you any skeletons to hide?
All that aside, your co-owner also flew the aircraft without valid insurance - consider that when the aircraft gets bent.
one of the members unknowingly uses it when the CofA had expired.
Anyone can make a mistake, it is not a big thing just a cautionary tale for education purposes. If it was knowingly used then it is different kettle of fish.
Go on ask me how many people come to me for licence revalidation's without realising the licence has expired and they have been flying.......
He's not someone I see often but I didn't really want to get involved in it. His excuse was "How do I know unless someone tells me?" despite copies of all the documents being in the aircraft. No skeletons but can't be bothered with the hassle. If the engineers report it that s their decision at least. Thanks for your responses.
In this case (flight in genuine ignorance of a duff CofA) means no insurance, definitely.
Come on........
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one of the members unknowingly uses it when the CofA had expired.
A mistake is a mistake. Sometimes you people amaze. I am so glad I am surrounded by perfect people who never make a mistake which allows them to sit and pontificate on the mistakes of others.
I seem to post the same thing many times; can anyone give an example of an insurer avoiding payout due to excessive crosswind, w&b outside limits, c of a unwittingly expired, or other technicalities?
Conversely, almost every accident seems to involve somebody making a mistake; as far as I know a payout has always been made.
The fact is we are talking about something that has happened. No harm no foul and hopefully the person in question will be a bit more careful to check the paperwork in future. A learning experience,, nothing more.
Utter bollox talking about reporting people. Like I said I am glad those pontificating are perfect and thus will never make a mistake.....
I seem to post the same thing many times; can anyone give an example of an insurer avoiding payout due to excessive crosswind, w&b outside limits, c of a unwittingly expired, or other technicalities?
Cjboy - you are correct. The things you list are just pilot negligence, and negligence is covered. As would be something crazy like a VFR departure into OVC002 - perfectly legal because you don't have to be 500ft clear while departing, and afterwards you don't need to be 500ft clear if the ground is devoid of people building etc.
However, the insurer will not pay out if the CofA is void, and I have this from a Haywards loss adjuster I spoke to face to face. Similarly, the pilot licenses need to be valid. The loss adjuster checks these papers.
Now, onto practical details. If the CofA has lapsed by date, that is clear. If it has not lapsed, but has been voided by some technicality (like somebody fitted a washer which did not come with a certificate of conformity ) he will never discover it. They don't look that closely.
(1) The aircraft documentation wasn't properly maintained because somebody couldn't be bothered with the paperwork? (2) The aircraft documentation was properly maintained but the pilot couldn't be bothered to check it before flight?
Seems to me that in case (1) whoever the syndicate rules say was in charge is at fault, and in case (2) the pilot is at fault. Unless, the syndicate rules for checking paperwork before each flight don't tell the pilot where to look, so again it's down to the person to whom the syndicate delgates criminal responsibility for keeping the paperwork straight. Or, if the syndicate has no paperwork at all, it's everybody's fault, because every pilot should know that such things need to be controlled.
The commander of an aircraft shall take all reasonable steps to satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off.....that the aircraft is in every way fit for the intended flight, and that where a certificate of maintenance review is required by article 14(1) to be in force, it is in force and will not cease to be in force during the intended flight
So it's the commanders responsibility. However, if it could be proven that you as the person 'running' the syndicate implied that the aircraft was airworthy you could well expect to be held partially responsible.
In reality neither will happen if you are honest and open about it and take steps to resolve the problem.
Theoretically the pilot who flew it should report himself to the CAA because he breached the ANO. However, I pass no judgement on him; it has already been pointed out that anyone can make a mistake once.
Is this an innocent 'we made a mistake should we own up' or is it a 'should I shop him?'
Or should it be 'how can it be possible for a group member to fly the aircraft if the C of A has expired?
My feeling is that it is the latter but probably with undercurrents of the former.
Sort out the situation which has resulted in this state of affairs - because it threatens everyone in the syndicate. You do not need a forum thread to establish that!
A lesson has hopefully been learned by the individual concerned. Perhaps a better system can be put in place, for the benefit of all members of the syndicate to ensure it doesn't happen again? Which is probably what the CAA would say in a cautionary letter if it were reported.
Surely a tiny placard on the IP with 'c of a expiry,insurance expiry,next annual due etc wouldn't be too difficult to organise on a group a/c. Never seen one in any of our club rentals but there is an enormous whiteboard in the briefing room with all this stuff on it. MM
On our aircraft, there is the flight log with the date of the next 50 hour/6month check and the date of the expiry of the CofA
Members of the group are supposed to check this before flight. If I find they have flown the wrong side of these dates, forget the CAA or insurance company - their dangly bits will be decorating the christmas tree....
Like robin's, our aircraft has a "tech log" with the expiry date, next-check tacho reading, etc clearly written at the top of the page. If P1 does a proper Check-A and writes it in the tech log before flight, he's writing on the page with the info on it.
The C of A, C of MR, and all the other documents are in a "docs folder" in the back of P1's seat.
It would be hard to go flying without knowing the C of A was invalid, unless you'd decided beforehand to do so.
But some folks will fly first, write up afterwards.
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) he will never discover it. They don't look that closely.
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