How do civilan pilots view military pilots
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I was recently reading in some American flying magazine about a guy who was training to be a USAF pilot, he'd come quite a long way through the training but hadn't flown a 'GA type' for a long time. A friend of his asked if he could go flying with his 17 year old son who'd just got his licence in a C172. The son offered him the landing at the end and the guy nearly crashed! On top of that he then scraped the wing on the hangar as he was taxiing in.
Fg Off Max Stout you're probably right about my CCF commander, he was a bit like that. However I wasn't going to take his advice anyway...
Fg Off Max Stout you're probably right about my CCF commander, he was a bit like that. However I wasn't going to take his advice anyway...
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The military don't get housing, they pay rent for it, and at a comparable rate to council rent. Likewise they pay for food, usually to a civilian catering company, and frequently nothing to be jealous of.
The more you fly, the better you get, regardless of who is paying for the fuel. Military aviators crash and die just the same as anybody else, the differance is that it is not always due to pilot error or a technical fault. We do get a ceremony on occasion:
My opinion FWIW is that the more you practice a skill, the better (most people) get at it. Experience cannot be taught, it has to be accumulated and includes many war stories along the way. Therefore any pilot be it civil or military who flies most days will be good at what he does. An individual who flies once every 3 months, well enough said really. But I hope that even these people recognise their own limitations and inexperience, and I have read threads here to that effect.
This is IMHO a silly thread, and if you visit the Mil Forum (as I have visited this one) you can witness at first hand the discontent prevalent throughout military aviation. Are we not all on the same side??
The more you fly, the better you get, regardless of who is paying for the fuel. Military aviators crash and die just the same as anybody else, the differance is that it is not always due to pilot error or a technical fault. We do get a ceremony on occasion:
My opinion FWIW is that the more you practice a skill, the better (most people) get at it. Experience cannot be taught, it has to be accumulated and includes many war stories along the way. Therefore any pilot be it civil or military who flies most days will be good at what he does. An individual who flies once every 3 months, well enough said really. But I hope that even these people recognise their own limitations and inexperience, and I have read threads here to that effect.
This is IMHO a silly thread, and if you visit the Mil Forum (as I have visited this one) you can witness at first hand the discontent prevalent throughout military aviation. Are we not all on the same side??
I thought this thread was about 'what civvies think of mil?' ...it's degenerated into 'my pen#s is bigger than yours' as usual!
Like anything in life, I guess some people are just naturaly good at something and some are not, some PPL flyers are crap and some are gifted aviators that given the opportunity could quite easily have operated a FJ.
I respect all Pilot's, whether they fly a glider or a Fast jet, we all share something in common.
Like anything in life, I guess some people are just naturaly good at something and some are not, some PPL flyers are crap and some are gifted aviators that given the opportunity could quite easily have operated a FJ.
I respect all Pilot's, whether they fly a glider or a Fast jet, we all share something in common.
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youngskywalker
True, but that wasn't the question posed.
some PPL flyers are crap and some are gifted aviators that given the opportunity could quite easily have operated a FJ.
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So Reasearch101 are you any the wiser?
In general I think we all respect the job the military pilots do, but since these people are individuals, some we would go to the pub with, others we wouldn't trust to take our granny home. But you get that in all walks of life.
Having had the pleasure of working with both civvy and mil pilots working in a mil type role, there really is nothing to choose between which system produces a better pilot. So those who want to wave their dicks about, put them away since while you have your pants down, you are in danger of talking through your bottom.
In general I think we all respect the job the military pilots do, but since these people are individuals, some we would go to the pub with, others we wouldn't trust to take our granny home. But you get that in all walks of life.
Having had the pleasure of working with both civvy and mil pilots working in a mil type role, there really is nothing to choose between which system produces a better pilot. So those who want to wave their dicks about, put them away since while you have your pants down, you are in danger of talking through your bottom.
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Flying Lawyer, I think I'll have to take most of that one on the chin. Your points are good ones, as far as they apply to the average PPL(A). And I've seen enough of the UAS training system to know that far higher standards apply.
I'm not sure that I accept your definition of GA, though, as synonymous with PPL(A) VFR bimbling. If you add in competitive aeros, medevac/organ transplant flights, SE single pilot IFR, aerial photography, helicopter charters and a few other bits and pieces which rarely make the evening news, it's a bit more difficult and unforgiving than you imply. In fact, the question asked what civilian pilots think of military ones, and might more usefully have been asked in one of the airline forums, since what we have descended into here is the usual slanging match about standards for the average spamcan driver on a Sunday afternoon.
And I don't at all accept that most people capable of driving a car are capable of getting a PPL. Yes, they could handle the aircraft. But the written exams and navigation are another ballgame.
And I utterly resent the implication that I use my PPL to pose to impressionable teenagers, by the way. On the contrary, it enables me to teach the cadet syllabus from a position of knowledge and understanding, rather than the rumour and second-hand misconceptions prevalent in most cadet units.
Tim
(PS if I walked the strip at my 'home' base I'd be arrested in seconds!)
I'm not sure that I accept your definition of GA, though, as synonymous with PPL(A) VFR bimbling. If you add in competitive aeros, medevac/organ transplant flights, SE single pilot IFR, aerial photography, helicopter charters and a few other bits and pieces which rarely make the evening news, it's a bit more difficult and unforgiving than you imply. In fact, the question asked what civilian pilots think of military ones, and might more usefully have been asked in one of the airline forums, since what we have descended into here is the usual slanging match about standards for the average spamcan driver on a Sunday afternoon.
And I don't at all accept that most people capable of driving a car are capable of getting a PPL. Yes, they could handle the aircraft. But the written exams and navigation are another ballgame.
And I utterly resent the implication that I use my PPL to pose to impressionable teenagers, by the way. On the contrary, it enables me to teach the cadet syllabus from a position of knowledge and understanding, rather than the rumour and second-hand misconceptions prevalent in most cadet units.
Tim
(PS if I walked the strip at my 'home' base I'd be arrested in seconds!)
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And I utterly resent the implication that I use my PPL to pose to impressionable teenagers, by the way. On the contrary, it enables me to teach the cadet syllabus from a position of knowledge and understanding, rather than the rumour and second-hand misconceptions prevalent in most cadet units.
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I'll try and get back on topic amongst the ego's.
This civvy pilot has nothing but respect and an awful lot of jealousy for Mil. pilots.
Airline flying is a poor second best in comparison to flying something fast and pointy and the training regimes cannot be compared. Trying to compare PPL training with military training is really a bit laughable.
I am an FI, but the civilian training is very poor compared to what is meted out to those in Liz's flying club.
My biggest regret is having been born with rubbish eyesight, so that when I applied as a teenager I was only offered the potential of a desk job or a backseat.
I have many friends who fly things I only see as a dot in the screen and every day I wish I was one of them.
Oh well, I guess I'll have to put up with earning more and being home every night. (I'd trade it all in a second, even though I'm told I'm nuts by those in the know!)
This civvy pilot has nothing but respect and an awful lot of jealousy for Mil. pilots.
Airline flying is a poor second best in comparison to flying something fast and pointy and the training regimes cannot be compared. Trying to compare PPL training with military training is really a bit laughable.
I am an FI, but the civilian training is very poor compared to what is meted out to those in Liz's flying club.
My biggest regret is having been born with rubbish eyesight, so that when I applied as a teenager I was only offered the potential of a desk job or a backseat.
I have many friends who fly things I only see as a dot in the screen and every day I wish I was one of them.
Oh well, I guess I'll have to put up with earning more and being home every night. (I'd trade it all in a second, even though I'm told I'm nuts by those in the know!)
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I've total respect for Mil pilots whatever they fly. It's near impossible to get a seat in the first place let alone the hard basic training and then rigours of the flying training and all for about the same pay as a FO. Then your body and soul is at the beck and call at any time of the day or night for the next 12 years or more. Told where you have to go, which can be anywhere in the world, even in to combat with little or no notice and no compassion at all for your personal circumstances.
It's very much a community lifestyle environment in the services with quite different thinking at every level and in every role. You may be able to see why opinions, behaviour and attitudes may differ from those in civvy street and the lack of mutual understanding as a result.
I can honestly say I have encountered a great deal more arrogant 'up their own a
s' people in the GA and Airline community than in any other walk of life. Money I suspect is the cause. As the MD of my own business, given the choice, I'd rather spend an evening in the local with a random group of services pilots than with a group of GA or Airline types any day.
Saying that I was a little miffed when my tug pilot and I had to ditch the line at 2.5k to avoid a Tornado [flown by a trainee and instructor] who came at us from my right at high speed. Fastest diving turn I've ever done in a glider at that height.
He didn't see either of us, before or after we peeled off, which of course I believe....
It's very much a community lifestyle environment in the services with quite different thinking at every level and in every role. You may be able to see why opinions, behaviour and attitudes may differ from those in civvy street and the lack of mutual understanding as a result.
I can honestly say I have encountered a great deal more arrogant 'up their own a
s' people in the GA and Airline community than in any other walk of life. Money I suspect is the cause. As the MD of my own business, given the choice, I'd rather spend an evening in the local with a random group of services pilots than with a group of GA or Airline types any day.Saying that I was a little miffed when my tug pilot and I had to ditch the line at 2.5k to avoid a Tornado [flown by a trainee and instructor] who came at us from my right at high speed. Fastest diving turn I've ever done in a glider at that height.
He didn't see either of us, before or after we peeled off, which of course I believe....
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I fly from an airfield which is within a MATZ. As such I share airspace and ATC with military pilots. Very professional on both counts.
As for those forumites whinging about paying taxes to allow them to fly for "free"? What do you say we do? Send them down to the local flying school with a discount voucher and then send them to Helmand Province?
Get a grip.
As for those forumites whinging about paying taxes to allow them to fly for "free"? What do you say we do? Send them down to the local flying school with a discount voucher and then send them to Helmand Province?
Get a grip.
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What a stupid thread! How does the average paperboy view the average milkman...!? We all fly planes....some big some small, some fast some slow, some high some low, some are better than others, some are more tolerant of others.......don't mix up recreational GA flying with paid mil, paid commercial or paid GA flying. One is a lighthearted hobby while others are serious professions for serious (sometimes not) money........
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I have great respect for mil aviators. As said, they do not fly a plane like I do. Instead, they operate a plane with seamless ease while using it as a platform to support a mission.
However...
I do believe that FJ aviators have a slightly different perspective on flight safety, perceived risks and acceptance of risks than we as GA/private citizens have. Obviously they are paid to take risks with their own lifes and aircraft, and have to train for that. But I get the feeling that sometimes they assume that others are willing to accept the same risks.
The example above, and other examples of mil pilots busting CTRs, ATZs, parachute jump areas, glider towing fields etc, all market on the maps and, if necessary, dutifully NOTAMed, are a testament to that. I also heard a story a while ago of a few F16s cruising along the Dutch coast, who reported themselves at 1000 feet southbound. A flying club college of mine was opposite track, northbound, at 1000 feet, so he told the ATC authority that he was descending to 500 feet for vertical separation. To his great surprise (to put it mildly), a few minutes later, the mil fighters passed underneath him. Now I don't know whether the F16s coordinated their descent with the ATC unit on UHF (although their initial call was on VHF), or whether they were able to track my college on primary radar (this is a no-transponder zone), or other mitigating circumstances, but at least my collegue was not very happy with this encounter.
Sometimes it's almost as if the military in general (not just aviation) has a "get out of jail free" card and are able to pull stunts like this under the pretext of "training" without having to think about consequences for themselves or others. Maybe because as military, particularly foreign military, they are somewhat shielded from the normal retribution mechanisms of authorities like the CAA?
However...
Saying that I was a little miffed when my tug pilot and I had to ditch the line at 2.5k to avoid a Tornado [flown by a trainee and instructor] who came at us from my right at high speed. Fastest diving turn I've ever done in a glider at that height. He didn't see either of us, before or after we peeled off, which of course I believe...
The example above, and other examples of mil pilots busting CTRs, ATZs, parachute jump areas, glider towing fields etc, all market on the maps and, if necessary, dutifully NOTAMed, are a testament to that. I also heard a story a while ago of a few F16s cruising along the Dutch coast, who reported themselves at 1000 feet southbound. A flying club college of mine was opposite track, northbound, at 1000 feet, so he told the ATC authority that he was descending to 500 feet for vertical separation. To his great surprise (to put it mildly), a few minutes later, the mil fighters passed underneath him. Now I don't know whether the F16s coordinated their descent with the ATC unit on UHF (although their initial call was on VHF), or whether they were able to track my college on primary radar (this is a no-transponder zone), or other mitigating circumstances, but at least my collegue was not very happy with this encounter.
Sometimes it's almost as if the military in general (not just aviation) has a "get out of jail free" card and are able to pull stunts like this under the pretext of "training" without having to think about consequences for themselves or others. Maybe because as military, particularly foreign military, they are somewhat shielded from the normal retribution mechanisms of authorities like the CAA?
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Backpacker
Sorry chum, but you've just displayed a shocking lack of knowledge of the flight safety culture prevalent in military aviation. You would be only too aware of this if you were actually involved yourself, rather than making aspersions based on no first hand knowledge. My experiences of both sides have shown the flight safety systems and ethos in the miltary to be far more effective than those present in private flying. I think you'll also find that private flyers are responsible for far more zone/level busts than the military, and the systems in place to ensure military aviators are aware of all relevant NOTAMs are far more rigourous than for private flyers.
I can't speak for Dutch procedures, but relating the incident to UK ops, I can well understand what might have happened - although I am obviously very much guessing here. The F16s may well have reported "not above 1000ft", and, upon hearing of your colleague, descended lower in order to aid visual acquisition of him, by skylining him - it's far easier to see aircarft above the horizon than those below it. I can't recall ever getting a clearance to fly at 1000ft in the UK, but have many times been instructed to fly "NOT ABOVE 1000ft". Liek I say, that explanation is pure supposition on my part, but an educated guess.
I can't speak for Dutch procedures, but relating the incident to UK ops, I can well understand what might have happened - although I am obviously very much guessing here. The F16s may well have reported "not above 1000ft", and, upon hearing of your colleague, descended lower in order to aid visual acquisition of him, by skylining him - it's far easier to see aircarft above the horizon than those below it. I can't recall ever getting a clearance to fly at 1000ft in the UK, but have many times been instructed to fly "NOT ABOVE 1000ft". Liek I say, that explanation is pure supposition on my part, but an educated guess.
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Backpacker, you are very wrong my friend.
It may not be the CAA carrying out the 'retribution' but believe it or not the legality and authorisation of military flying is very strictly enforced. It is not unknown for aircrew to be interviewed under caution by the RAF Police (who are dead keen to press charges and court martial pilots) purely on the basis of a civilian flying complaint (although mostly radar tapes or GPS evidence later proves the complaint to be unfounded). It has the potential to be career killing stuff - not something the average MATZ intruder has to worry about.
Incidentally, in a fast jet environment, 500ft was possibly the worst place your friend could have put himself and was almost certainly nibbling his legal limits.
Sometimes it's almost as if the military in general (not just aviation) has a "get out of jail free" card and are able to pull stunts like this under the pretext of "training" without having to think about consequences for themselves or others. Maybe because as military, particularly foreign military, they are somewhat shielded from the normal retribution mechanisms of authorities like the CAA?
Incidentally, in a fast jet environment, 500ft was possibly the worst place your friend could have put himself and was almost certainly nibbling his legal limits.
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Sorry, Max Stout, but intrusion into a MATZ is no offence at all. I'm not saying it's sensible, and in my opinion all MATZ should all be class E at least, but it's not a requirement to obtain a clearance or even be in two-way radio contact before entering a MATZ.
Tim
Tim
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As someone who spent more than a decade in the RAF including going through flight training but ending up in a different role I would quite categorically state that military aviators are the leaders and the Royal Air Force are the finest in the world. Yes there are egos in military aviation, you only have to meet many of them after they leave the mob to see this. However it is for a reason, these guys are not really just aviators, they are warriors flying an ariel combat platform, the aircraft is transport to the site of the mission, aviation skills are a pure reflex action second place to the combat role and this combat role is never to be under estimated.
There are plenty of private flyers out there myself included who fly and have access to fast jets. Being able to operate a FJ is minor compared to the ability to aviate, navigate, communicate and FIGHT.
Yes the mil have cock-ups they are still human, but a massive amount of attention is paid to safety and considering the operational and training requirements there are few incidents.
So how do I view military pilots? They are the finest in the world with egos to match. If I could have come close the standards they achieve I would probably not be posting as Bose-X................
There are plenty of private flyers out there myself included who fly and have access to fast jets. Being able to operate a FJ is minor compared to the ability to aviate, navigate, communicate and FIGHT.
Yes the mil have cock-ups they are still human, but a massive amount of attention is paid to safety and considering the operational and training requirements there are few incidents.
So how do I view military pilots? They are the finest in the world with egos to match. If I could have come close the standards they achieve I would probably not be posting as Bose-X................
OK, I think we've established that both 'sides' have excellent pilot and plonkers, and that some have not reached their true abilities. Maybe some day (for all).
Shall we start a new thread on Blondes vs Brunettes, Scots vs Welsh, Aussies vs Kiwis, Typhoons vs F22s, Implants vs Natural, VHF vs UHF, Summer vs Winter, Betamax vs VHS, Koran vs Bible, Britney vs Christina, Blue Angels vs Red Arrows, Kruger vs Blown flaps, Camisoles vs Slips, Skidding vs Slipping, RT Brevity vs Plain Language, or Gayness vs Mate Banter ???
Shall we start a new thread on Blondes vs Brunettes, Scots vs Welsh, Aussies vs Kiwis, Typhoons vs F22s, Implants vs Natural, VHF vs UHF, Summer vs Winter, Betamax vs VHS, Koran vs Bible, Britney vs Christina, Blue Angels vs Red Arrows, Kruger vs Blown flaps, Camisoles vs Slips, Skidding vs Slipping, RT Brevity vs Plain Language, or Gayness vs Mate Banter ???
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Not to the 'max rate turn on the buffet nibble' standard we demanded from our UAS students, just safe enough not to get themselves or anyone else into trouble, or to risk the aeroplane.
Correct me if I am wrong here. Don't you have the option of "stepping out" if your aforementioned sortie goes South?
I had no such option when learning to fly in my 152. I'm now learning to really fly now that my abilities are more in line with my perceived abilities.
Best,
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