PPL America or UK????
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PPL America or UK????
Hello all,
Just a question for those of you in the know. I have been offered the cash to do a PPL, however I would like to know is it worthwhile me doing it in the UK or taking one of the numerous courses that are offer in America? Might I add that I am by no means made of money so the cheaper the better!!!! This PPL is possibly the first step in my aviation career, as oppose to being completed as a hobby. so in summary my questions are:
1) which is cheaper: America or UK flying school
2) WHich would give the better training as I really don't want to waste my sponsors money.
3) Which would give the best employment prospects, with regards to getting a CPL or ATPL?? (I am aware this is a different matter entirely and will be dealt with at a later date)
Your (constructive) opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Tinsparrow
Just a question for those of you in the know. I have been offered the cash to do a PPL, however I would like to know is it worthwhile me doing it in the UK or taking one of the numerous courses that are offer in America? Might I add that I am by no means made of money so the cheaper the better!!!! This PPL is possibly the first step in my aviation career, as oppose to being completed as a hobby. so in summary my questions are:
1) which is cheaper: America or UK flying school
2) WHich would give the better training as I really don't want to waste my sponsors money.
3) Which would give the best employment prospects, with regards to getting a CPL or ATPL?? (I am aware this is a different matter entirely and will be dealt with at a later date)
Your (constructive) opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Tinsparrow
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Tinsparrow,
Rather difficult to answer your questions as they are too general. For the quality of training, it is the training provider, not the continent that makes the difference.
For flying in the UK, my personal feeling is that your biggest enemy is the weather which is vastly different from the US (or at least Florida where most of the cheaper training venues are). UK training can be very stop start at certain times of the season, but returning from a PPL completed in the US leaves you ill equiped for our environment (far more controlled airspace and rapidly changing weather conditions). ONce you add airfares and accomodation, the price gap narrows although you would still save by going abroad. If you are intent on going abroad, don't just look at the US.
One of the biggest advantages of the UK is that you can visit a number of training providers to see their setup and exactly what you get for your money.
With regards to employment, obtaining a PPL puts you on course for the modular route, but in all honesty I don't think any airline is worried about where you trained for a PPL as to them it is a "hobby" licence. There are many theories as to whether airlines care where you did your CPL and IR training, but I would suggest go where you find the training best suits your purposes. This is not always the cheapest as it is money wasted if you can't pass the CPL or IR flight tests.
Regards
Obs cop
Rather difficult to answer your questions as they are too general. For the quality of training, it is the training provider, not the continent that makes the difference.
For flying in the UK, my personal feeling is that your biggest enemy is the weather which is vastly different from the US (or at least Florida where most of the cheaper training venues are). UK training can be very stop start at certain times of the season, but returning from a PPL completed in the US leaves you ill equiped for our environment (far more controlled airspace and rapidly changing weather conditions). ONce you add airfares and accomodation, the price gap narrows although you would still save by going abroad. If you are intent on going abroad, don't just look at the US.
One of the biggest advantages of the UK is that you can visit a number of training providers to see their setup and exactly what you get for your money.
With regards to employment, obtaining a PPL puts you on course for the modular route, but in all honesty I don't think any airline is worried about where you trained for a PPL as to them it is a "hobby" licence. There are many theories as to whether airlines care where you did your CPL and IR training, but I would suggest go where you find the training best suits your purposes. This is not always the cheapest as it is money wasted if you can't pass the CPL or IR flight tests.
Regards
Obs cop
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Right Folks,
I see what you are saying, it is of no use to me if I get a cheap PPL in FLorida only to have to spend another £2-3k on hours building to acclimatise myself to aviation in a uk climate etc... however I simply do not have the money to spend an absolute fortune but would like to pursue aviation as a career. From what most flight instructors have told me a ppl is vital to getting a career development loan for doing IR and CPL. with regards to pursuing a career ina viation any advice whatsoever would be appreciated as well as my questions above. thanks.
Tinsparrow.
I see what you are saying, it is of no use to me if I get a cheap PPL in FLorida only to have to spend another £2-3k on hours building to acclimatise myself to aviation in a uk climate etc... however I simply do not have the money to spend an absolute fortune but would like to pursue aviation as a career. From what most flight instructors have told me a ppl is vital to getting a career development loan for doing IR and CPL. with regards to pursuing a career ina viation any advice whatsoever would be appreciated as well as my questions above. thanks.
Tinsparrow.
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Might I add that I am by no means made of money so the cheaper the better!!!!
This PPL is possibly the first step in my aviation career, as oppose to being completed as a hobby
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Tinsparrow,
If it is any help, my biggest problem when doing my PPL was getting comfortable with RT and the vast amounts of controlled/retricted/danger airspace we have here. The actual flying and handling will be the same anywhere. If it is simpler or much different in the states then it may take a while to change.
If it is possible or practical (and I'm not at all sure that it is), how about doing 3/4 of your PPL in the US and the rest in the UK.
If it is any help, my biggest problem when doing my PPL was getting comfortable with RT and the vast amounts of controlled/retricted/danger airspace we have here. The actual flying and handling will be the same anywhere. If it is simpler or much different in the states then it may take a while to change.
If it is possible or practical (and I'm not at all sure that it is), how about doing 3/4 of your PPL in the US and the rest in the UK.
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Why not learn in microlights, and convert to their big brothes once you have the licence?
Or go to Canada.
Or Australia.
Maybe do some gliding first, then moved to powered.
The possibilities are endless!
There are also some fairly reasonably priced places to learn in the UK.
Have fun.
Or go to Canada.
Or Australia.
Maybe do some gliding first, then moved to powered.
The possibilities are endless!
There are also some fairly reasonably priced places to learn in the UK.
Have fun.
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Thankyou for the feedback folks. With regards to the R/T I should be OK as I work in air traffic. My sponsor (my old man) seems rather struck on the idea of me going to america, however wants me to find out if there is any benefit to doing it in England (although I expect it will cost more), obviously he sees it as investing in my fututre which is nice of him, and likewise I don't really want to waste his money. this is really why I am asking. to ask yet another set of questions ( and at the risk of sounding very ignorant) what are the prospects of employment after gaining a ppl (I do realise by the way that I would have to do IR and cpl etc...) IE is it a worthwhile investment with regards to starting a career in aviation (with regards to maybe sponsorship or securing a personal development loan).
I realise I may sound like I don't know an awful lot, however I am serious and figure this is the only way to find out by asking, so please be patient with me.
Thanks once again
Tinsparrow
I realise I may sound like I don't know an awful lot, however I am serious and figure this is the only way to find out by asking, so please be patient with me.
Thanks once again
Tinsparrow
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Tinsparrow - Perhaps you should have a browse through the Professional Pilot Training forum. You will probably be able to find some answers if you search the recent threads.
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Aerbabe,
There is not much conclusive material on that forum really but it is worth asking. I think it is generally understood that for Prof training, if you attend one of the integrated schools (Oxford, Cabair or BAe (Jerez)) or get on one of the CTC Schemes then you are in a firm position to get a good jet job. Other than that UK modular training is most times seen to be of a higher quality due to whatever reason. I am on the modular route. The contradiction is that the integrated schools use US facilities for part of the training, with the exception of BAe which is in Spain.
There is not much conclusive material on that forum really but it is worth asking. I think it is generally understood that for Prof training, if you attend one of the integrated schools (Oxford, Cabair or BAe (Jerez)) or get on one of the CTC Schemes then you are in a firm position to get a good jet job. Other than that UK modular training is most times seen to be of a higher quality due to whatever reason. I am on the modular route. The contradiction is that the integrated schools use US facilities for part of the training, with the exception of BAe which is in Spain.
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High Wing Drifter:
Could you explain the modular route etc...
this is the kind of area where I come a cropper as every time I ask an instructor I get a blurb of jargon which I dont really understand and feel an idiot to ask.
thanks again
Tinsparrow
Could you explain the modular route etc...
this is the kind of area where I come a cropper as every time I ask an instructor I get a blurb of jargon which I dont really understand and feel an idiot to ask.
thanks again
Tinsparrow
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what are the prospects of employment after gaining a ppl (I do realise by the way that I would have to do IR and cpl etc...) IE is it a worthwhile investment with regards to starting a career in aviation (with regards to maybe sponsorship or securing a personal development loan).
In the current climate it is probable that you will have to pay for all your fATPL (CPL/IR + ATPL theory). There are a few schemes that can help, so it is worth doing some research, but sponsorship to take you from 0 to an fATPL is very rare and keenly contested. In general I would have thought that a PPL would help with (or, at least, not hinder) applications for sponsorship towards the further licences and ratings. As for CDLs, they are intended for vocational training (i.e. skills leading to a job) and so can be used to pay for professional training (however, they are capped at £8000 so will not pay for all of it). A PPL can't really be claimed as vocational, so you would need one before applying for a CDL.
Could you explain the modular route etc...
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Tinsparrow,
Are you looking at doing a fully integrated course or modular. The first is between £55k and £75k and the second about £35k.
The only reason I ask is that without a PPL you can only do the integrated route.
The modular route requires that yougain the licences and qualifications one step at a time.
First step is a PPL, without which you cannot start studying for your ATPLs.
You cannot do your CPL until you have your PPL, Night rating ATPLs and 150 hours (including 100 solo).
Once you have this the next hurdle is your IR (normally including your multi engine rating) followed by an MCC course.
The point here is that you must have the PPL to go the modular route. You do not need it if you are going for fully integrated, but that costs huge bucks.
I would recommend that you do your PPL in the UK. Chances are your CPL and IR will be in the UK and there are quite a few places in the UK that are fairly reasonable in terms of cost - shop around and don't pay up front. You will save money going to the US, but not huge amounts. Have you thought of it the other way round?
PPL is 45 hours and about £4500 in the UK, but prior to CPL you need to do at least another 90 hours solo. You get more hours for your money in the states and their is more to go and see. You could do a UK PPL to get the best training you can and then go to the states for a holiday and hours build mega cheaply.
Obs cop
Are you looking at doing a fully integrated course or modular. The first is between £55k and £75k and the second about £35k.
The only reason I ask is that without a PPL you can only do the integrated route.
The modular route requires that yougain the licences and qualifications one step at a time.
First step is a PPL, without which you cannot start studying for your ATPLs.
You cannot do your CPL until you have your PPL, Night rating ATPLs and 150 hours (including 100 solo).
Once you have this the next hurdle is your IR (normally including your multi engine rating) followed by an MCC course.
The point here is that you must have the PPL to go the modular route. You do not need it if you are going for fully integrated, but that costs huge bucks.
I would recommend that you do your PPL in the UK. Chances are your CPL and IR will be in the UK and there are quite a few places in the UK that are fairly reasonable in terms of cost - shop around and don't pay up front. You will save money going to the US, but not huge amounts. Have you thought of it the other way round?
PPL is 45 hours and about £4500 in the UK, but prior to CPL you need to do at least another 90 hours solo. You get more hours for your money in the states and their is more to go and see. You could do a UK PPL to get the best training you can and then go to the states for a holiday and hours build mega cheaply.
Obs cop
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Good posts Obs cop and AerBabe.
I'm rather surprised at Genghis' cryptic response; usually he is much more thoughtful. Personally I don't agree that a person would necessarily get better training in the UK: there are too many variables to generalize like that.
I'm rather surprised at Genghis' cryptic response; usually he is much more thoughtful. Personally I don't agree that a person would necessarily get better training in the UK: there are too many variables to generalize like that.
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I dont necessarily think that the training you would receive in the USA or elsewhere for your PPL would be worse, however, I do feel that if you plan to fly in the UK, training in the UK is better.. for a start you will be learning in the conditions you will be flying in normally... and UK training is certainly better suited to flying in the UK.
Most people that I have come across returning from the USA with a PPL have required around 10 hours of extra training to get them up to scratch flying here. With some there were major deficiences in almost every area, others it was just a case of getting used to the more congested and cluttered UK airspace, navigating here (the scenery is obviously rather different), R/T to name a few.
Even the best will require a good few hours to convert once returning. Also once you factor in travel, accomodation and food etc, the USA really is not a lot cheaper in the long run.
There are also a good few flying clubs/schools in the UK that do not cost the earth and also in my experience, in the UK at least, the price that a flying club/school charges has very little relation to quality of training provided.
Since you are planning to go on and do your CPL etc you need to take in to account a few factors which might help you in the long run.
I think it might suit you to do your PPL in the UK, possibly somewhere fairly busy so that you are prepared for higher workloads and busier R/T conditions.
With regards to hour building, I would try to do this as cheaply as you can (so by all means go to the USA, South Africa, Canada etc etc) however try to make every hour count, get your IMC+night, do a complex conversion, do try some longer nav routes, and go up with an instructor every 10 or so hours to iron out any bad habits that may be developing. But make those hours count, it will help you through the CPL and save you money in the long run.
If you want to hour build in the UK, the hiring rate from most flying clubs generally makes it expensive, so consider either buying into a group if you have the capital, or join a non-capital group (ie where u just pay per hour, or monthly and per hour). You could consider approaching a flying club/school and negotiating a favourable rate for a block of hours (most flying schools do not have all of their aircraft busy all of the time) or even private owners.
I dont think it makes a jot of difference where you do your PPL with regards to future employment. CPL maybe, but thats a matter of opinion
Even if you do decide to opt for an integrated CPL course, I would still do a PPL first, it will make the CPL course easier, whether modular or integrated and also if in the slim chance you find flying isnt for you, you wont have blown £50k getting there.
These are just my opinions, they;r enot set n stone and I'm sure some people may agree and some will disagree, ultimatle u have to go with your gut feeling.
Sorry if this had been a bit long winded
PM me if you want any more info/advice etc
LP
(edited for those nasty keyboard and spelling gremlins)
Most people that I have come across returning from the USA with a PPL have required around 10 hours of extra training to get them up to scratch flying here. With some there were major deficiences in almost every area, others it was just a case of getting used to the more congested and cluttered UK airspace, navigating here (the scenery is obviously rather different), R/T to name a few.
Even the best will require a good few hours to convert once returning. Also once you factor in travel, accomodation and food etc, the USA really is not a lot cheaper in the long run.
There are also a good few flying clubs/schools in the UK that do not cost the earth and also in my experience, in the UK at least, the price that a flying club/school charges has very little relation to quality of training provided.
Since you are planning to go on and do your CPL etc you need to take in to account a few factors which might help you in the long run.
I think it might suit you to do your PPL in the UK, possibly somewhere fairly busy so that you are prepared for higher workloads and busier R/T conditions.
With regards to hour building, I would try to do this as cheaply as you can (so by all means go to the USA, South Africa, Canada etc etc) however try to make every hour count, get your IMC+night, do a complex conversion, do try some longer nav routes, and go up with an instructor every 10 or so hours to iron out any bad habits that may be developing. But make those hours count, it will help you through the CPL and save you money in the long run.
If you want to hour build in the UK, the hiring rate from most flying clubs generally makes it expensive, so consider either buying into a group if you have the capital, or join a non-capital group (ie where u just pay per hour, or monthly and per hour). You could consider approaching a flying club/school and negotiating a favourable rate for a block of hours (most flying schools do not have all of their aircraft busy all of the time) or even private owners.
I dont think it makes a jot of difference where you do your PPL with regards to future employment. CPL maybe, but thats a matter of opinion
Even if you do decide to opt for an integrated CPL course, I would still do a PPL first, it will make the CPL course easier, whether modular or integrated and also if in the slim chance you find flying isnt for you, you wont have blown £50k getting there.
These are just my opinions, they;r enot set n stone and I'm sure some people may agree and some will disagree, ultimatle u have to go with your gut feeling.
Sorry if this had been a bit long winded
PM me if you want any more info/advice etc
LP
(edited for those nasty keyboard and spelling gremlins)
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All down to the Pilot
When it is all said and done, the training is the same. Whether you are flying in the UK or the US the aircraft is the same; you pull up the houses get smaller, you pull up again the houses get bigger
Both sides are tested by JAA approved Examiners to the same levels.
It all comes down to the pilot and their experience. Whereas LooneyPilot sees one side, I see the other. Even freshly tested pilots at JAA Instrument level (a feat in itself) arrive in the US with need of some hours brush up. It is do do with a pilot leaving his element and being in strange surroundings. Another problem is time; we recommend that as soon our JAA approved pilots leave that they get back in the air as soon as possible.....the longer they leave it the confidence level drops and on top of that, a new aircraft, a new airport and a new voice from the tower. It is only natural for all novice PPL's on either side of the pond needing some boost of training to get them back into things and familiar with their surroundings. We always recommend that new pilots on their return home get a couple of hours with an Instructor to get familiar and comfortable with the area that they fly in.
As for the price........it only really compares to anywhere in the world when you complete it in the minimums and with minimums you need continuity. As long as you can dedicate the time and money with no weather problems most pilots can finish in or close to the minimums. However, once you start adding in the external factors of life, weather etc things can get delayed and this starts adding onto the minimums. That is why many pilots half way through end up having long breaks and get out of practise because it is hard to juggle training, careers, school, personal lives without interferring with a flight schedule. A great many pilots end up travelling to fair weather bases throughout the World to finish up with a good bout of continuous, dedicated training.
There will always be those who want to complete at home and those that want to dedicate time abroad......they all end up with the same licence to join in this great World of Pilots.
Both sides are tested by JAA approved Examiners to the same levels.It all comes down to the pilot and their experience. Whereas LooneyPilot sees one side, I see the other. Even freshly tested pilots at JAA Instrument level (a feat in itself) arrive in the US with need of some hours brush up. It is do do with a pilot leaving his element and being in strange surroundings. Another problem is time; we recommend that as soon our JAA approved pilots leave that they get back in the air as soon as possible.....the longer they leave it the confidence level drops and on top of that, a new aircraft, a new airport and a new voice from the tower. It is only natural for all novice PPL's on either side of the pond needing some boost of training to get them back into things and familiar with their surroundings. We always recommend that new pilots on their return home get a couple of hours with an Instructor to get familiar and comfortable with the area that they fly in.
As for the price........it only really compares to anywhere in the world when you complete it in the minimums and with minimums you need continuity. As long as you can dedicate the time and money with no weather problems most pilots can finish in or close to the minimums. However, once you start adding in the external factors of life, weather etc things can get delayed and this starts adding onto the minimums. That is why many pilots half way through end up having long breaks and get out of practise because it is hard to juggle training, careers, school, personal lives without interferring with a flight schedule. A great many pilots end up travelling to fair weather bases throughout the World to finish up with a good bout of continuous, dedicated training.
There will always be those who want to complete at home and those that want to dedicate time abroad......they all end up with the same licence to join in this great World of Pilots.
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Hi Tinsparrow
I think you've had some good advice here. I have flown in both Blighty and the US, and I honestly believe that if you're going to be living/flying in the UK, then it's probably best to start your PPL in the UK. I do most of my flying in the NE US, where the weather and scenery is very similar to the UK, however, flying here is a lot more expensive than the schools in the popular US destinations such as Florida and California.
I think your best bet as recommended by other members here is to go abroad (US, Canada, South Africa etc.) after you finish your PPL to expose yourself to foreign flying practices, and more importantly to build those cheap hours!
Best of luck with your training
EinNY
I think you've had some good advice here. I have flown in both Blighty and the US, and I honestly believe that if you're going to be living/flying in the UK, then it's probably best to start your PPL in the UK. I do most of my flying in the NE US, where the weather and scenery is very similar to the UK, however, flying here is a lot more expensive than the schools in the popular US destinations such as Florida and California.
I think your best bet as recommended by other members here is to go abroad (US, Canada, South Africa etc.) after you finish your PPL to expose yourself to foreign flying practices, and more importantly to build those cheap hours!
Best of luck with your training
EinNY