20 minute rule

[finncapt]

I was recently involved, as slf, in a tech delay, which occurred after pax boarding and before doors were closed.

At 20 minutes after STD the Captain announced that "as 20 minutes have passed, and the aircraft has not moved under it's own power, pax have a right to request to be offloaded".

Some pax took advantage of this offer, which increased the delay considerably (the tech problem was fixed relatively quickly).

The Captain again apologised at top of descent citing the same "rule".

I have never heard of this before and have googled to no avail (maybe I am not using the correct search terms) to find chapter and verse or, for that matter, to find discussion.

Perhaps the combined talents of pprune could point me to where this "20 minute rule" is carved in "tablets of stone".

Thankyou.

[ExXB]

Where did this happen? I know the US DOT has rules related to tarmac delays but these wouldn't apply in Finland, for example.

[finncapt]

You can probably guess but it was at LHR routing to HEL.

HEL is a hub for the far east and it resulted in many pax missing their connections to accomodate a few - who, knowing how quickly a transfer at HEL can be done (just walk to a nearby gate, no additional security or other checks), would, possibly, have made their connection if the flight departed when the tech problem was solved.

The rule may obtain in the US but I suspect intra EU it may not apply.

I looked carefully on the UK CAA website but could find no mention.

[wiggy]

Hi again f.c.

"as 20 minutes have passed, and the aircraft has not moved under it's own power, pax have a right to request to be offloaded".

I had yet another dig around some regs I have access to but I can't find that wording or rule set for general delays in Europe , It sounds like a very quite a strongly/firmly worded PA, very much in line with much more stringent US rules....(where FWIW it's 30 minutes).


That said as you know given the rash of passenger rights legislation these days if the doors are open you're on very shaky ground trying to stop a passenger deciding not to travel the if the aircraft is doors open and at the gate.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by wiggy

That said as you know given the rash of passenger rights legislation these days if the doors are open you're on very shaky ground trying to stop a passenger deciding not to travel the if the aircraft is doors open and at the gate.

I'd always been under the impression that a passenger could elect to offload him/herself at any point, including a request to return to the gate to do so if necessary.

Subject to security and operational constraints, obviously, so probably a request that would be declined if the aircraft has commenced its takeoff roll ...

[wiggy]

Only reference I can find regarding the EU rules is a proposal a few years back for a 5 (yes five) hour rule.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...)556983_EN.pdf


Edit to add: According to informed sources the current rules are laid down in EU 261_2004. I've tried to wade through the official version and can see no mention of the 20 minute requirement, just "If a flight is delayed by five hours, passengers are additionally entitled to abandon their journey "...FWIW the short wiki version is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_261/2004

In short I (still) have no idea why that PA/claim was made.

DR

I'd always been under the impression that a passenger could elect to offload him/herself at any point, including a request to return to the gate to do so if necessary.

This one comes up on the "legal" courses....of course on the day it may very difficult, for operational reasons, to return to stand from the holding point....

[PAXboy]

Never heard this one.

[finncapt]

Thanks guys, I have pm'd one of the contributors to the thread, who works for the airline involved, with a few suggestions to, hopefully, clear up what seems to have been a misunderstanding of the rules on the day.

Alan

[750XL]

Never heard of that rule on any airline, including Finnair.

[Peter47]

I believe that its three hours in the US, but remember that they do require unaccompanied hold baggage to be offloaded so its not as much as deal as it would be elsewhere. I believe that it is four hours for international flights.

[wiggy]

I believe that it is four hours for international flights.

Yes, that's the ultimate rule for international flights ex the States - after 4 hours all passengers must be given the option to disembark (unless safety, ATC or security reasons dictate other wise).

The US rules also state is that during a delay every 30 minutes a PA needs to be made updating the passengers and "consideration" should be given to telling passengers that there is an option to disembark at that time (if that is possible).

As I read it there's no equivalant requirement to continually offer disembarkation in the EU.

[Rwy in Sight]

(unless safety, ATC or security reasons dictate other wise).

How this is proved/enforced? An airline would prefer to keep the pax on board to avoid further delays and can invent an ATC refusal to allow them even a remote stand?

[ExXB]

The US DOT is of the view that they can find the airline $150k per passenger for any infraction.

I'm not convinced the law they depend on (dealing with deceptive advertising) gives them that right, however they have never been challenged. The small handful of cases have been handled by consent decrees* for much smaller total sums.

*Wherein the airline consents to a smaller penalty in exchange for forgiveness of half if they don't sin again.

[RAT 5]

Some pax took advantage of this offer, which increased the delay considerably (the tech problem was fixed relatively quickly).

One wonders why wake the sleeping dog.

[wiggy]

ExXB

The US DOT is of the view that they can find the airline $150k per passenger for any infraction.

Indeed, the (US) fines are eyes watering. This is a subject close to my heart since we got tangled up in a 4 hour 1 min (!!) delay due de-icing problems which ultimately resulted in a return to gate and cancellation when trying to depart the eastern seaboard shortly after the DoT rules were introduced.

We were saved from being fined by the fact we were stuck on a remote de-icing pad for most of the time so disembarkation was not possible and then we needed a route back to the gate snowploughed...even so for the sake of that 1 minute the Feds chased us with paperwork for several months.

RAT5

Indeed.

[finncapt]

Since this thread seems to have resurrected, I thought I would widen the discussion.

What happens after a pax decides to exercise his right to disembark.

Does the airline have an obligation to get him/her to their destination?

Supposing the aircraft is fit to depart, in short order, after the pax has offloaded.

Can her/him ask to reboard?

Perhaps pax could be planted to disrupt a competing airline.

[ExXB]

If a passenger chooses not to travel, I see no difference to a no-show. Refund? Why? Obligation to reroute? Why? The DOT rule doesn't consider this.

Disrupt a competitor? Can't see how anyone could foresee/ forecast such an event.