Same old story ...
Paxing All Over The World
Thread Starter
Same old story ...
Plane drunks could be banned from flying forever
Is reported in The Times first and then picked up by The Independent today.
So - airlines might actually enforce their own rules?? Nope, looks like they are getting the CAA to do the job for them:
The articles point out that airlines already have the power to do this. But fails to call them to task for not doing so. After all, they do need the airline advertising ...
Is reported in The Times first and then picked up by The Independent today.
So - airlines might actually enforce their own rules?? Nope, looks like they are getting the CAA to do the job for them:
Ministers are said to be considering sanctions including a blacklist that bars intoxicated British passengers from flying with domestic carriers. Passengers could also be screened for drunkenness before they board, or stopped from buying too many drinks in airport terminals.
A dossier prepared by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), seen by The Times, records a rise in reports of passengers drinking their own booze, smoking in lavatories, assaulting cabin crew, fighting, using abusive language, damaging tray tables and stealing lifejackets.
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Actually the airlines do not have the power to 'collectively' do this. Any decision to ban someone can only be for their own services.
Being banned for flying 'forever' seems a little extreme. A life sentence for murder in the UK generally means 20 years or so. Do such penalties actually work as a deterrent?
And, IMHO, airlines should look at their {expletive deleted} pricing policies for on-board drinks. It is no wonder the punters seek to pre-load when they can buy a pint at the airport (at already obscene prices) for less that a 33ml tin of crap lager on the plane. They can control on-board sales a lot easier than those purchased airside.
And on flights ex the EU (for example to Switzerland) it's close to 90% profit as they sell duty/excise/VAT free drinks at the same prices as they sell it on intra-EU flights.
Being banned for flying 'forever' seems a little extreme. A life sentence for murder in the UK generally means 20 years or so. Do such penalties actually work as a deterrent?
And, IMHO, airlines should look at their {expletive deleted} pricing policies for on-board drinks. It is no wonder the punters seek to pre-load when they can buy a pint at the airport (at already obscene prices) for less that a 33ml tin of crap lager on the plane. They can control on-board sales a lot easier than those purchased airside.
And on flights ex the EU (for example to Switzerland) it's close to 90% profit as they sell duty/excise/VAT free drinks at the same prices as they sell it on intra-EU flights.
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Personally don't see the onboard prices to be that expensive. It's only what you pay on a night out in a major town or city. Norwegian even sells full wine bottles for a similar price to what you would pay in a soul less chain restaurant. The 330 ml cans are very poor value but it doesn't deter people buying them. If people are out to get drunk they'll do so regardless of price.
Contrast that to a full service airline. They give their drink away for 'free' yet I'm sure it doesn't incentivise people from not getting merry before hand or bringing their own alcohol onboard.
Flying into Spain the police are slow to respond and usually couldn't care less. Last time they told us they couldn't do anything as the aircraft is not EC- registered and therefore they have no jurastiction. So in those instances cancelling their return flight is as much as you can do.
Contrast that to a full service airline. They give their drink away for 'free' yet I'm sure it doesn't incentivise people from not getting merry before hand or bringing their own alcohol onboard.
Flying into Spain the police are slow to respond and usually couldn't care less. Last time they told us they couldn't do anything as the aircraft is not EC- registered and therefore they have no jurastiction. So in those instances cancelling their return flight is as much as you can do.
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It doesn't matter, IMO of course, if the airline charges £8 for a can of beer or it's free the whole way to Miami, people who want to will still get loaded up at the airport before they fly as it's seen as a vital part of the holiday in many cultures, especially the UK and ESPECIALLY with young groups which so many of these stories involve.
Aside from the usual Greek and Spanish Island, Turkish and Black sea resort charter flights, places such as LAS are sometimes in the news for disruptive passenger behaviour and they are almost always on full service carriers where alcohol is free. The airlines cannot control what happens on the ground, so the problem could be passed on.
Airport bars and restaurants could have a drink limit per person as we all know the effects of booze can take a while to kick in and at 33,000 feet the process is exaggerated anyway, so nipping it in the bud seems sensible. I'm sure some would protest, but it'd certainly cut down on a lot of the behaviour. I imagine the vast majority of airport users in a bar or lounge are there to relax anyway and aren't chugging down the pints and cocktails like the "lads on tour" lot do, so having an alcoholic drink limit most likely won't actually affect anyone other than the people trying to get drunk before a flight.
The problem of drinking duty free onboard is harder to tackle. Locked overhead bins would only stop people getting important things during the flight and having crew unlock them on demand would ensure they'd never get anything else done. Tamper proof bags which cannot be opened without a knife (which would hopefully not be onboard) or some kind of system where any duty free bought is sent to the aircraft hold and the passenger collects it on arrival...but that is not going to be practical or cheap to roll out either and people would find a way around it if they were so determined to get drunk.
A lifetime ban is overkill, but stopping them for a few years, maybe 3 would be good, with longer bans for more severe troublemakers or a lifetime ban for repeat offenders. It won't stop the first time offenders though and no doubt the "human rights" brigade would be all over it.
Aside from the usual Greek and Spanish Island, Turkish and Black sea resort charter flights, places such as LAS are sometimes in the news for disruptive passenger behaviour and they are almost always on full service carriers where alcohol is free. The airlines cannot control what happens on the ground, so the problem could be passed on.
Airport bars and restaurants could have a drink limit per person as we all know the effects of booze can take a while to kick in and at 33,000 feet the process is exaggerated anyway, so nipping it in the bud seems sensible. I'm sure some would protest, but it'd certainly cut down on a lot of the behaviour. I imagine the vast majority of airport users in a bar or lounge are there to relax anyway and aren't chugging down the pints and cocktails like the "lads on tour" lot do, so having an alcoholic drink limit most likely won't actually affect anyone other than the people trying to get drunk before a flight.
The problem of drinking duty free onboard is harder to tackle. Locked overhead bins would only stop people getting important things during the flight and having crew unlock them on demand would ensure they'd never get anything else done. Tamper proof bags which cannot be opened without a knife (which would hopefully not be onboard) or some kind of system where any duty free bought is sent to the aircraft hold and the passenger collects it on arrival...but that is not going to be practical or cheap to roll out either and people would find a way around it if they were so determined to get drunk.
A lifetime ban is overkill, but stopping them for a few years, maybe 3 would be good, with longer bans for more severe troublemakers or a lifetime ban for repeat offenders. It won't stop the first time offenders though and no doubt the "human rights" brigade would be all over it.
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I'm crossing my fingers here, but I've had very little trouble with passengers who are the worse for wear due to drugs and alcohol. Maybe half a dozen in 20 years? But the profile of our passengers is radically different to your average bucket-and-spade punter. We also rarely fly stag and hen parties. However, as a company we have had some dreadful incidents but I'm afraid most of these were own goals - the crews saw the warning signs and still let those they were concerned about on.
Charging for drinks is also not one of the problems we face. They are included in the ticket price, so there is no need to pre-load.
But the best way you avoid the lager louts is to have high quality gate staff who will off-load the roudies before they even get on.
PM
Charging for drinks is also not one of the problems we face. They are included in the ticket price, so there is no need to pre-load.
But the best way you avoid the lager louts is to have high quality gate staff who will off-load the roudies before they even get on.
PM
But the profile of our passengers is radically different to your average bucket-and-spade punter.
Charging for drinks is also not one of the problems we face. They are included in the ticket price, so there is no need to pre-load.
Charging for drinks is also not one of the problems we face. They are included in the ticket price, so there is no need to pre-load.
Your rate is pretty typical by the way, most crew members of any given UK carrier will have dealt with a handful of incidents spread over several years. Some crew never see an incident.
'Ministers are said to be considering sanctions including a blacklist that bars intoxicated British passengers from flying with domestic carriers. Passengers could also be screened for drunkenness before they board, or stopped from buying too many drinks in airport terminals.'
How likely are they to intervene without appropriate security personnel? Like much in UK we plan a new law/regulation without providing the means to enforce existing rules
Paxing All Over The World
Thread Starter
Exactly farci. that is why I used the thread title Same old story ...
Not enforcing their own rules has become a SOP for the airline world (such as cabin baggage
) Getting the CAA and politicians to do their dirty work is pathetic and smacks of mutual back scratching.
Not enforcing their own rules has become a SOP for the airline world (such as cabin baggage
) Getting the CAA and politicians to do their dirty work is pathetic and smacks of mutual back scratching.
Paxboy, where are you getting the impression that the airlines have asked the CAA and/or politicians to do "the dirty work", and are somehow passing the buck? Genuine question. I'm quite heavily involved in these issues and I'm not aware of any approach to the CAA by any industry association or individual carrier. What the CAA have done is issue press releases based on a hundred and odd MOR events in the last year. Industry wasn't consulted on that release and the true figure is much, much higher. Sure, you need the regulators on message and on side, but believe me, the industry don't expect regulators or politicians to solve it for us.
As for not enforcing our own rules, we do as an airline industry try to enforce all of the rules that we set on board. Anyone involved with disruptive behaviour on our flights are either denied further carriage, put on stricter conditions of carriage, or reported to police for prosecution dependent on the level of behaviour, and I'm not aware of any UK carrier that acts differently. The fact is that sometimes people board sober(ish) and then neck spirits secretly, or take drugs, or they just act badly towards their fellow pax or crew, and won't listen to reason when challenged. Can you tell me what more we should be doing?
As for not enforcing our own rules, we do as an airline industry try to enforce all of the rules that we set on board. Anyone involved with disruptive behaviour on our flights are either denied further carriage, put on stricter conditions of carriage, or reported to police for prosecution dependent on the level of behaviour, and I'm not aware of any UK carrier that acts differently. The fact is that sometimes people board sober(ish) and then neck spirits secretly, or take drugs, or they just act badly towards their fellow pax or crew, and won't listen to reason when challenged. Can you tell me what more we should be doing?
Paxing All Over The World
Thread Starter
Laarbruch72 Because I am deeply cynical about the way life in Britain goes on. I have seen too many examples of favours being done in commercial and government orgnisations. I'm sure that no one has made a formal approach, in my experience, all the fixes are done underneath the table or, allegedly, on the golf course.
As to airlines not carrying out their own rules, we have all seen the pax in the bars who are just waved on board to create problems later. The gate staff just want rid of them and the CC know the problems of turning them back at that point. We all know how these people can 'sober up' when they have to present themselves.
We have all seen airlines ignoring their rules about hand luggage - it must be the most talked about subject in this forum. Even the simple rules about boarding in an orderly manner (in another current thread) I'm sure that many carriers do enforce their regulations but there seems to be something on almost every trip.
I no longer expect any commercial organisation to act with principles. Heck, even the lofty VW has just come crashing down because someone thought they could get an advantage over the competition in an underhand way. Last year it was Tesco who broke the rules and airlines have done their fair share of fare fixing and so on.
No, I am not saying they are all the same thing and all are doing it - but I am saying that I do not expect anyone to play by 'the rules' any more.
As to airlines not carrying out their own rules, we have all seen the pax in the bars who are just waved on board to create problems later. The gate staff just want rid of them and the CC know the problems of turning them back at that point. We all know how these people can 'sober up' when they have to present themselves.
We have all seen airlines ignoring their rules about hand luggage - it must be the most talked about subject in this forum. Even the simple rules about boarding in an orderly manner (in another current thread) I'm sure that many carriers do enforce their regulations but there seems to be something on almost every trip.
I no longer expect any commercial organisation to act with principles. Heck, even the lofty VW has just come crashing down because someone thought they could get an advantage over the competition in an underhand way. Last year it was Tesco who broke the rules and airlines have done their fair share of fare fixing and so on.
No, I am not saying they are all the same thing and all are doing it - but I am saying that I do not expect anyone to play by 'the rules' any more.
Last edited by PAXboy; 24th Sep 2015 at 23:13.
You don't need a blacklist as such - simply remove the right to a passport, or issue one with a picture of an aircraft with a large cross through it.
They could still use a ferry in the latter case.
They could still use a ferry in the latter case.
As to airlines not carrying out their own rules, we have all seen the pax in the bars who are just waved on board to create problems later. The gate staff just want rid of them and the CC know the problems of turning them back at that point. We all know how these people can 'sober up' when they have to present themselves.
For what it's worth, and as someone involved heavily in this issue, I can tell you that most pax that end up being disruptive (I'd say around 90%) don't board in a drunken state and aren't showing signs of potential disruptive behaviour at boarding. It usually starts later on in the flight when they get stuck in to the duty free, and when altitude makes the state worse, or when they simply fall out with another pax or a crew member. It's very hard for crew to police that problem proactively, but I can assure you that airlines are not routinely turning a blind eye at the gate and neither are handling agents, although clearly there will be an odd exception where that does happen and we deal with that on a case by case basis. Why would any airline encourage crew to take the problem into the air, considering that the cost of a divert can be anything from 8 grand to in excess of 30 grand when it gets complex with FTL issues etc?
Paxing All Over The World
Thread Starter
Reviewing my earlier, I can see that it looks rather 'late night'!
However, my experience of rowdy rugby (and other sporting) crowds and having been a pax for nigh on 50 years tells me that carriers shy away from the problem. They do not want to cause a scene when, for the most part, intoxicated pax are quiet and go to sleep. We know that with the luggage problem, they fear losing customers and so allow more on board than the rules state.
Alcohol is a problem across the UK and it shows up in every walk of life. No one wants to grasp the nettle - see the non activity of the govt in this field.
However, my experience of rowdy rugby (and other sporting) crowds and having been a pax for nigh on 50 years tells me that carriers shy away from the problem. They do not want to cause a scene when, for the most part, intoxicated pax are quiet and go to sleep. We know that with the luggage problem, they fear losing customers and so allow more on board than the rules state.
Alcohol is a problem across the UK and it shows up in every walk of life. No one wants to grasp the nettle - see the non activity of the govt in this field.
Personally I've never seen CC simply accept someone who is clearly too intoxicated. Generally, crew are a pretty determined bunch who know the pit falls of carrying people who have had too much. Of course, there are people who board
having had a couple of drinks. In the eyes of the law they're intoxicated (crew can't definitively determine that unlike police) but that accounts for a huge proportion of passengers, especially on certain routes and from certain airports. I come across many older, middle class and respected passengers who were will have 2 or 3 drinks in the airport bar and officially they are intoxicated. So have we reached a point where we start profiling passengers. From my experience disruptive pax aren't always groups of young lads and girls. Most seem to be slightly older males. Getting rid of alcohol from the airport and airline experience is the only way you could get rid of the issue but let's keep it in
proportion, the overwhelming majority of people have drinks on their flights (myself included) who remain polite, respectable and well behaved.
having had a couple of drinks. In the eyes of the law they're intoxicated (crew can't definitively determine that unlike police) but that accounts for a huge proportion of passengers, especially on certain routes and from certain airports. I come across many older, middle class and respected passengers who were will have 2 or 3 drinks in the airport bar and officially they are intoxicated. So have we reached a point where we start profiling passengers. From my experience disruptive pax aren't always groups of young lads and girls. Most seem to be slightly older males. Getting rid of alcohol from the airport and airline experience is the only way you could get rid of the issue but let's keep it in
proportion, the overwhelming majority of people have drinks on their flights (myself included) who remain polite, respectable and well behaved.
Last edited by easyflyer83; 27th Sep 2015 at 01:25.
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We had a 'fun' flight to Vegas in May. Group of men in their early 30's looked a little worse for wear, and proceeded to carry on drinking One of them decided to have a smoke in the loo, the other latter vomited in the loo.
The crew were not best pleased with either. They were eventually told firmly to stay put or else... The alcohol had been locked down by then.
Another group of younger gents were having a fine old time with the duty free JD that they had brought onboard.
It was a flight that I (and speaking to the Cabin Crew as they left the terminal) and they were pleased to leave.
The crew were not best pleased with either. They were eventually told firmly to stay put or else... The alcohol had been locked down by then.
Another group of younger gents were having a fine old time with the duty free JD that they had brought onboard.
It was a flight that I (and speaking to the Cabin Crew as they left the terminal) and they were pleased to leave.
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Worst I ever saw was an Icelandair flight from AMS to Rekyavik - the native Icelanders were drinking at such a rate the airport staff had coralled them in with a single bar devoted to them alone -
security guy said it was the same on every flight but they were no trouble in the airport or in the air........
security guy said it was the same on every flight but they were no trouble in the airport or in the air........
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Heathrow Harry
You should also try the Friday Finnair flight LHR to Helsinki. I was quite surprised when the drinks cart came out, it seemed, shortly after passing Windsor while still in the climb ! The party then started all the way to Finland or until the booze ran out over the Baltic. Though quite merry there were no issues, as some nations handle alcohol better, it seems to me than some of my countrymen.
We have an acquaintance who is a Virgin Pilot who tells us that some of the transatlantic bucket and spade trips to Florida/ Caribbean/ Las Vegas from Man, can have a similar problem with the booze being finished by 40 W on one occasion, with similar results to those quoted by DJP.
Cheers
Mr Mac
You should also try the Friday Finnair flight LHR to Helsinki. I was quite surprised when the drinks cart came out, it seemed, shortly after passing Windsor while still in the climb ! The party then started all the way to Finland or until the booze ran out over the Baltic. Though quite merry there were no issues, as some nations handle alcohol better, it seems to me than some of my countrymen.
We have an acquaintance who is a Virgin Pilot who tells us that some of the transatlantic bucket and spade trips to Florida/ Caribbean/ Las Vegas from Man, can have a similar problem with the booze being finished by 40 W on one occasion, with similar results to those quoted by DJP.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Helsinki's have always been like that. The Finns like their drink. Florida routes generally aren't too bad since many are driving at the other end. The fact is that like the Finns etc, generally speaking there are plenty of flights ex UK where many on a flight enjoy the bar but the flight passes with no problems.
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there is/was an early morning flight Helsinki-Oslo - known to Norwegians as the "Cognac Express" - quite a sight to see well dressed business people of both sexes necking down a few jars of English Ciders with ice before takeoff (God knows why but they love it) followed by the full drinks trolley AT BREAKFAST in flight.........
You sit there praying no-one decides to light up - the fumes are unbelievable.....
The Finns just drink - soak it up like its water...... v different to the Norwegians & the Brits
You sit there praying no-one decides to light up - the fumes are unbelievable.....
The Finns just drink - soak it up like its water...... v different to the Norwegians & the Brits