Passenger Tasered on Easyjet plane
"... detained under the Mental Health Act for admission to a psychiatric unit for further assessment and treatment ...!"
Baggage? Baggage??? Sod the 'extra' bag argument! If I'd been one of the pax on that aircraft and found that out I'd be somewhat relieved he was taken off before departure for whatever reason! Who knows what he might have kicked off about in mid air had he been in that frame of mind? And the fact that he had to be tasered would indicate that it would quite likely have been more than anyone else could cope with!!
Baggage? Baggage??? Sod the 'extra' bag argument! If I'd been one of the pax on that aircraft and found that out I'd be somewhat relieved he was taken off before departure for whatever reason! Who knows what he might have kicked off about in mid air had he been in that frame of mind? And the fact that he had to be tasered would indicate that it would quite likely have been more than anyone else could cope with!!
Well, if he didn't need psychiatric help before he got on the plane...
It is claimed by various sources that the passenger was charged with "Breach of the Peace". A Mickey-Mouse charge that can mean almost anything: "Looking at a Police Officer in a funny way"; "saying something a police office doesn't want to hear". Not Actual Bodily Harm (hitting someone and causing a minor injury). Not even Assault (spitting on someone, touching or holding someone who does not consent, or sometimes behaviour which appears to physically threaten someone, without actual contact). Also not "Drunk and Disorderly".
So we appear to have a non-violent argument between a customer and staff of a service provider on an aircraft nearly ready to depart.
I fail to see how this justifies tasering anyone.
I have searched for England Police guidance on the operational use of tasers, but so far I haven't found anything except broad generalisations about Police ethics, and some failed Freedom of Information requests.
If any readers can do better, could they post or PM their findings ?
I might, perhaps vainly, hope that a Police officer entering the aircraft might assess the situation; recognise it as a heated but non-violent dispute between customer and service providers' staff; and seek to defuse the situation without taking sides. That the dispute is happening on an aircraft does not seem very relevant to me.
One hypothesis might be that the cause of the injury to the prospective passenger was partly in convergent thinking and reverse logic:
- Pilot reports problem with passenger to tower
- Tower reports problem to police
- Police charge in, taser perp, and drag him off
- Police have tasered perp, so perp must be bad or mad [taserings must be reported]
- Perp in cell
- Police figure out perp can't be done for being dangerous or drunk or hurting anyone, so left with Mickey Mouse charge[s].
- Bad might not stand up, so Police tell loony bin that they have a dangerous loony.
- Loony bin doctor duly says "yup, that's a loony"
A kind of reasoning process which I believe aviators are trained to avoid.
Is this within the remit of the AAIB?
A passenger has been injured (by a taser) on an aircraft. Does that qualify as an investigable incident?
Is this within the remit of the AAIB?
A passenger has been injured (by a taser) on an aircraft. Does that qualify as an investigable incident?
A passenger has been injured (by a taser) on an aircraft. Does that qualify as an investigable incident?
sleazyjet
sums them up nicely.
The staff before security at Malpensa this june checked our boarding cards to see if we had paid for premium or not as not and we had to get on our knees and put our handbags into the carry on 10ft before we were allowed to go airside and pass through security. FACT - obviously at bequest of sleazy.
Managed descent has it right - poorly trained crew.
I would be very surprised if the boarding staff hadn't checked that his man bag fitted into his carry on...rarely seen otherwise when the aircraft is full.
As to racism I've seen more than enough in the UK - only towards very dark skins - the lighter dark skins have their own law as I've witnessed in the east end.
I visited the Caribbean pilots at RAF Hendon and heard first hand a distinguished aviator describe how he was stood on a chair with a noose around his neck and jibes of "lynch the ......"
Ireland, last month I witnessed an obese young woman at Brussels openly racist towards a VDS and her well behaved three small children in the boarding queue. Fat bird was from the republic...the North is far worse with recent news articles of trying to burn the vds out.
Only last weekend after 1 1/2 hours flying in the mornes I passed a property painted with red, white and blue flying the union flag designed to enrage the catholics and any decent minded person.
Sadly I would be very surprised if their wasn't an element of racism and certainly ignorance.
It's a sad state of affairs and no doubt sleazy have got the publicity they deserve.
The staff before security at Malpensa this june checked our boarding cards to see if we had paid for premium or not as not and we had to get on our knees and put our handbags into the carry on 10ft before we were allowed to go airside and pass through security. FACT - obviously at bequest of sleazy.
Managed descent has it right - poorly trained crew.
I would be very surprised if the boarding staff hadn't checked that his man bag fitted into his carry on...rarely seen otherwise when the aircraft is full.
As to racism I've seen more than enough in the UK - only towards very dark skins - the lighter dark skins have their own law as I've witnessed in the east end.
I visited the Caribbean pilots at RAF Hendon and heard first hand a distinguished aviator describe how he was stood on a chair with a noose around his neck and jibes of "lynch the ......"
Ireland, last month I witnessed an obese young woman at Brussels openly racist towards a VDS and her well behaved three small children in the boarding queue. Fat bird was from the republic...the North is far worse with recent news articles of trying to burn the vds out.
Only last weekend after 1 1/2 hours flying in the mornes I passed a property painted with red, white and blue flying the union flag designed to enrage the catholics and any decent minded person.
Sadly I would be very surprised if their wasn't an element of racism and certainly ignorance.
It's a sad state of affairs and no doubt sleazy have got the publicity they deserve.
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There's more to it than the Daily Mail reports
It's worrying that so many have taken the tabloid headlines so literally. So if someone has too much luggage, are challenged, then force their way onto a flight, again are challenged, become increasing irate and act completely irrationally, how should an airline handle it?
This is waaaaay beyond baggage limits/who checks bags/over head sizes. I'd love to know what you easyBashers think is an acceptable way to deal with someone. This is NOT a baggage issue. It is not a race issue. It is not an airline specific issue. Would a much betterer airline have just accepted that there's a guy on who does what he wants and is quite well built and a sinple thing like s bag has caused him to loose control. Do tell me which airlines would have let him fly so I know to avoid.
There are countless examples of people being asked to leave aircraft. Usually they comply and leave, sometimes the police are called to assist and people then realise it's time to go, sometimes they need to be physically removed and rarely they are tased. That is wholly at the discretion of the police.
Not sure what the nonsense about race is all about? Is that meant to be a get out of jail card? I can do what I want, and if I'm challenged, I just say they're being racist???
This is waaaaay beyond baggage limits/who checks bags/over head sizes. I'd love to know what you easyBashers think is an acceptable way to deal with someone. This is NOT a baggage issue. It is not a race issue. It is not an airline specific issue. Would a much betterer airline have just accepted that there's a guy on who does what he wants and is quite well built and a sinple thing like s bag has caused him to loose control. Do tell me which airlines would have let him fly so I know to avoid.
There are countless examples of people being asked to leave aircraft. Usually they comply and leave, sometimes the police are called to assist and people then realise it's time to go, sometimes they need to be physically removed and rarely they are tased. That is wholly at the discretion of the police.
Not sure what the nonsense about race is all about? Is that meant to be a get out of jail card? I can do what I want, and if I'm challenged, I just say they're being racist???
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Hearty Meatballs
Sadly there are too many Daily Mail readers commenting on here, most of whom show their complete ignorance of Policing and the risks and requirements thereof...Been out of the job a while (just like a lot of ex pilots on this thread) but while I was in, I dealt with many mentally ill people,too many in fact. Most of whom are capable of developing extraordinary strength, due to their illness..
Sometimes you can reason with them and get a peaceful ending, other times that is just impossible.I well remember 3 of us having to sit on one lad in the Ambulance while we got him to admission at the mental ward.Ditto a young girl, weighing about 8 stone who threw a chair at a presiding magistrate and fought like a lion with 4 big cops..You have to have compassion and understanding for them but............
None of us had to weigh up the circumstances that were going on in that narrow aisle, but the cop had about less than a minute to make a judgement and get it right..He/she took a decision they thought was right and appropriate and I for one am happy to accept their decision. why??..because right or wrong they made it honestly, knowing their actions would be subject to inquiry afterwards (and not the bull****e written on here
)
The issue of the baggage, I think, was a symptom not a cause.Mental Illness was that cause..I cant see what blame can be attached to the cabin crew or Easyjet for that matter, but as always there will those on here who froth at the mouth too easy..
Sadly there are too many Daily Mail readers commenting on here, most of whom show their complete ignorance of Policing and the risks and requirements thereof...Been out of the job a while (just like a lot of ex pilots on this thread) but while I was in, I dealt with many mentally ill people,too many in fact. Most of whom are capable of developing extraordinary strength, due to their illness..
Sometimes you can reason with them and get a peaceful ending, other times that is just impossible.I well remember 3 of us having to sit on one lad in the Ambulance while we got him to admission at the mental ward.Ditto a young girl, weighing about 8 stone who threw a chair at a presiding magistrate and fought like a lion with 4 big cops..You have to have compassion and understanding for them but............
None of us had to weigh up the circumstances that were going on in that narrow aisle, but the cop had about less than a minute to make a judgement and get it right..He/she took a decision they thought was right and appropriate and I for one am happy to accept their decision. why??..because right or wrong they made it honestly, knowing their actions would be subject to inquiry afterwards (and not the bull****e written on here
)The issue of the baggage, I think, was a symptom not a cause.Mental Illness was that cause..I cant see what blame can be attached to the cabin crew or Easyjet for that matter, but as always there will those on here who froth at the mouth too easy..
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PAX Britannica --
Thank you for some sense. The passenger could have been killed - not unknown with TASERs. As for his behaviour it could have been a (physical) illness, dehydration, unbalanced electrolytes, prescription medicine with interrupted meals, fluids, sleep etc. This was someone's brother, father, or son. Even if he was mentally ill or a 'bad person' does he deserve that degree of potentially lethal force in that environment?
I think it stinks that folk believe their convenience outweighs the life and safety of a passenger.
A passenger has been injured (by a taser) on an aircraft.
I think it stinks that folk believe their convenience outweighs the life and safety of a passenger.
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Thanks Paully, it's good to hear something balanced for once and gives an interesting insight as to events from the side of the police.
I fully sympathise with this man. I have no ill feelings toward him. If he was unwell then I wish him a speedy recovery. However his behavior would seem to be at complete odds with operating a flight safely and the decision to remove him was the correct one. The airline and the crew have no say in how this is done and no blame can be placed on them for the tasering.
I'm confident that the police would have only used force if completely necessary and possibly did not want to risk the gentleman perhaps kicking and thrashing his way through the cabin which had children onboard. It would have been a last resort and I am sure of that.
I don't think any rational person would this this is done merely for convenience. It was done for safety. People on here have used this as easyBashing bait which is quite sickening really. Using an unwell man to support their agendas.
Didn't BA, with is uber generous baggage allowance, wonderful cabins and highly trained veteran crews come literally seconds from disaster when an unwell person stormed the cockpit and tried to take the plane down. If those who are unwell can be identified on the ground it is a lot better for them as they can be given the support they need whilst ensuing the safety of others onboard.
I fully sympathise with this man. I have no ill feelings toward him. If he was unwell then I wish him a speedy recovery. However his behavior would seem to be at complete odds with operating a flight safely and the decision to remove him was the correct one. The airline and the crew have no say in how this is done and no blame can be placed on them for the tasering.
I'm confident that the police would have only used force if completely necessary and possibly did not want to risk the gentleman perhaps kicking and thrashing his way through the cabin which had children onboard. It would have been a last resort and I am sure of that.
I don't think any rational person would this this is done merely for convenience. It was done for safety. People on here have used this as easyBashing bait which is quite sickening really. Using an unwell man to support their agendas.
Didn't BA, with is uber generous baggage allowance, wonderful cabins and highly trained veteran crews come literally seconds from disaster when an unwell person stormed the cockpit and tried to take the plane down. If those who are unwell can be identified on the ground it is a lot better for them as they can be given the support they need whilst ensuing the safety of others onboard.
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HeartyMeatballs -- I'm not 'EasyBasher' or bleeding-heart either. TASER-ing is not entirely safe. It can kill. Those police officers who who extract folk on the apron can be well down the food chain. Certainly they won't have medical training. Remember that distressed man who doused himself in petrol? Burst into flames after the police TASER-ed him. Well, he could burst into flames, couldn't he? Commonsense tells most of us that.
My argument is with the use of a TASER. Disruptive people must be removed from the aircraft but appropriately. Since there is real risk of injury or death to the victim TASER-ing is not appropropriate unless there is real risk of injury to others.
My argument is with the use of a TASER. Disruptive people must be removed from the aircraft but appropriately. Since there is real risk of injury or death to the victim TASER-ing is not appropropriate unless there is real risk of injury to others.
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airport security
Years ago I mentioned politely to a security chap who did an explosives check on me that the check would not possibly work. This was not my special area, but I happened to have read up on it. Later I was removed from the aircrft by Special Branch and had an eyeball to eyeball confrontation with them. Fortuately my credentials caused them to bac k
down. Now I don't live in England anymore, from what I have heard if you disagree with the authorities you are definately sectionable. I think Kafka would be happy in England now.
down. Now I don't live in England anymore, from what I have heard if you disagree with the authorities you are definately sectionable. I think Kafka would be happy in England now.
Thankyou.
As in:
Accident. An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which:
a) a person is fatally or seriously injured as a result of:
— being in the aircraft, or
— direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including
parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
— direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self-inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew;
I find it unfortunate that in this case the analytical expertise of the AAIB in human and organisational factors cannot be deployed to investigate the roles of the training, SOPs, SOP compliance, corporate culture, and other human factors such as fatigue in this incident within both EasyJet and Sussex Police - who are responsible for policing at Gatwick Airport.
I guess part of the point of the exception is to insulate organisations such as the AAIB from political and judical interference with their function of rationally analysing the causes of an incident, so that similar incidents are less likely to recurr.
As in:
Originally Posted by ICAO Annex 13 Chapter 1
Accident. An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which:
a) a person is fatally or seriously injured as a result of:
— being in the aircraft, or
— direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including
parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
— direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self-inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew;
I guess part of the point of the exception is to insulate organisations such as the AAIB from political and judical interference with their function of rationally analysing the causes of an incident, so that similar incidents are less likely to recurr.
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Rat 5.
Don't you remember the good old days when the airlines, in IATA, would meet and agree common standards for just about everything. Baggage was no exception and included weight/piece rules for carry-on and checked bags. Even had common rules for charging for excess baggage - often not cheap. But much more convenient than shipping as cargo.
Even the non-IATA airlines followed the standards because, well, why reinvent the wheel?
Then governments, primarily European ones, the U.S., Australia and others decided all of this coordination was anti-competitive. So it stopped. IATA still exists but ther is little standard setting they can do. More often it's done in the alliances where they have limited anti-trust immunity.
Many would say we are better off with a free for all.
Don't you remember the good old days when the airlines, in IATA, would meet and agree common standards for just about everything. Baggage was no exception and included weight/piece rules for carry-on and checked bags. Even had common rules for charging for excess baggage - often not cheap. But much more convenient than shipping as cargo.
Even the non-IATA airlines followed the standards because, well, why reinvent the wheel?
Then governments, primarily European ones, the U.S., Australia and others decided all of this coordination was anti-competitive. So it stopped. IATA still exists but ther is little standard setting they can do. More often it's done in the alliances where they have limited anti-trust immunity.
Many would say we are better off with a free for all.
This guy was clearly mentally ill. I would like to think he was tasered as a last resort. He might not have been. And I have zero confidence in the 'Independent Police Complaints Authority' as a brake on police behaviour.
What a sad society we live in.
What a sad society we live in.
