Delayed Easyjet Flight 8720 LIS-LGW, Mon 07/07/14
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London, UK
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Delayed Easyjet Flight 8720 LIS-LGW, Mon 07/07/14
Hi all
We were on this EasyJet flight 8720, which was due to leave Lisbon at 2020 on 7/7/14 but was delayed by nearly 4 hours. We did hear something said about the incoming flight being delayed by ATC due to thunderstorms in the Barcelona area, but other flights didn't seem to be delayed leaving Lisbon like ours was, although their incoming flights may not have come to Lisbon via the same route as ours! But in the 4 hours the incoming flight was delayed by, I couldn't help wondering why it couldn't have flown around the weather.
I emailed Easyjet to claim compensation for the delay and got the following email back today:-
Having looked into your booking I can see flight EZY8720 on 07/07/14 was delayed by 3:58 on arrival into Lisbon.
The reason for this delay as per our Report is ATC restrictions due to weather. Please be advised that when a flight is disrupted it will be classified under EC261/2004 as either extraordinary or non-extraordinary. As this was outside of easyJet reasonable control and could not be prevented it is classified as extraordinary.
Under EC 261/2004 if a flight is disrupted due to an extraordinary circumstance compensation is not payable.
Never been in this situation before (at least, not in any EU country and since the EU flight delay rules came into force) and so just wondered whether a) if anyone else on Pprune and who was on this flight has tried to claim and, if so, how they fared and b) is Easyjet within its rights or is this ATC thing just an excuse to fob us off? It's interesting how they make no attempt to go into any detail.
We were on this EasyJet flight 8720, which was due to leave Lisbon at 2020 on 7/7/14 but was delayed by nearly 4 hours. We did hear something said about the incoming flight being delayed by ATC due to thunderstorms in the Barcelona area, but other flights didn't seem to be delayed leaving Lisbon like ours was, although their incoming flights may not have come to Lisbon via the same route as ours! But in the 4 hours the incoming flight was delayed by, I couldn't help wondering why it couldn't have flown around the weather.
I emailed Easyjet to claim compensation for the delay and got the following email back today:-
Having looked into your booking I can see flight EZY8720 on 07/07/14 was delayed by 3:58 on arrival into Lisbon.
The reason for this delay as per our Report is ATC restrictions due to weather. Please be advised that when a flight is disrupted it will be classified under EC261/2004 as either extraordinary or non-extraordinary. As this was outside of easyJet reasonable control and could not be prevented it is classified as extraordinary.
Under EC 261/2004 if a flight is disrupted due to an extraordinary circumstance compensation is not payable.
Never been in this situation before (at least, not in any EU country and since the EU flight delay rules came into force) and so just wondered whether a) if anyone else on Pprune and who was on this flight has tried to claim and, if so, how they fared and b) is Easyjet within its rights or is this ATC thing just an excuse to fob us off? It's interesting how they make no attempt to go into any detail.
Last edited by ilesmark; 15th Jul 2014 at 23:01.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always difficult to prove these things unless you have insider knowledge which helped me win a claim with Lufthansa. However, serious weather conditions en-route, or at, or near, departure and arrival airports can lead to increased flow management measures (i.e. restrictions). Severe weather makes life difficult for ATC because aircraft need to deviate off their planned track to avoid the worst of the weather. For this reason it is safer to reduce the amount of aircraft occupying the airspace which is affected. Other less affected routings will have quickly been swallowed up by rerouters and reached maximum capacity too. In the end some guys find themselves way back at the end of the line and suffer the worst delays. That may well have been your flight.
In my experience of claiming against EZY, they have a standard policy of denying all claims, (unless they have been caught "bang to rights"), at least twice. They initially denied my claim, even though it was caused by them wrongly scheduling crew!!!
So that was letter one.
Your reply should both ask for proof of what they said, and point out that weather has been found NOT to be extraordinary. Weather and its variations is normally quite ordinary.
They will deny it again.
So you write your third letter to the CEO at their Head Office.
They do try to respond to CEO letters.
So that was letter one.
Your reply should both ask for proof of what they said, and point out that weather has been found NOT to be extraordinary. Weather and its variations is normally quite ordinary.
They will deny it again.
So you write your third letter to the CEO at their Head Office.
They do try to respond to CEO letters.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 67
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Report is ATC restrictions
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Age: 68
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is very unlikely that any airline would lie to you about the reason for a delay/cancellation. Even the LCCs. The National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs), media, claims brokers and lawyers would very soon catch on to the attempted deception and would likely result in enforcement actions. (depending of course on the national law, 32 versions currently in play. EU28 + EEA3 +CH).
If 'flow management' results in a 10% reduction in capacity this means that 90% of flights will likely operate as planned.
Try one of the claims brokers (a short search away). They have the means to check U2's claims and to judge the likelihood of success, for a fee ...
If 'flow management' results in a 10% reduction in capacity this means that 90% of flights will likely operate as planned.
Try one of the claims brokers (a short search away). They have the means to check U2's claims and to judge the likelihood of success, for a fee ...
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you were told it was ATC then it was very likely ATC that caused the issues. Thunderstorms are very dynamic in their nature and they can cause severe flow restrictions at some stations which lead to slots so even though the skies are gin clear, departing or arriving may be hampered by slots. There's never a conspiracy between crews/OCC and the airport ground staff to falsify the reason for a delay.
I've never once lied to a passenger about the reasoning for a delay, I've never been asked to lie and if asked to lie I would certainly refuse to do so. The app is always the most up to to date source of information.
Either way there out of the airlines reasonable control and therefore you won't be entitled to compensation as with every other airline (nobody will give you money back unless they need to although you may get FF points if your airline has such a program and you're a member).
Keep I'm mind also that as with all airlines U2 jets operate many rotations throughout the day. Looking at arrivals/departures, your aircraft operated the NCE (all early) then delays picked up in BCN and picked up the delay leading to knock on delays whereas other aircraft may not have been through BCN and would not have picked up the delay.
I've never once lied to a passenger about the reasoning for a delay, I've never been asked to lie and if asked to lie I would certainly refuse to do so. The app is always the most up to to date source of information.
Either way there out of the airlines reasonable control and therefore you won't be entitled to compensation as with every other airline (nobody will give you money back unless they need to although you may get FF points if your airline has such a program and you're a member).
Keep I'm mind also that as with all airlines U2 jets operate many rotations throughout the day. Looking at arrivals/departures, your aircraft operated the NCE (all early) then delays picked up in BCN and picked up the delay leading to knock on delays whereas other aircraft may not have been through BCN and would not have picked up the delay.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lichfield UK
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barcelona?
I wonder if that referred to an earlier sector operated by the aircraft? Your incoming flight left Gatwick 4hrs 38 late and went nowhere near Barcelona. It followed the usual track to Lisbon, a straight line - overhead the Channel Is., Brest Peninsula, Bay of Biscay and on into Lisbon.
I noticed that a number of TAP flights, that evening suffered severe delays of between 1 and 4 hours (both arriving and departing) but their flight from Heathrow arrived on time as did BA 504 from LHR. Your inbound flight was followed by another, on time, EZ arrival from Manchester.
There does not seem to have been any weather disruption at Lisbon, save for some pretty sporty gusts late afternoon
I wonder if that referred to an earlier sector operated by the aircraft? Your incoming flight left Gatwick 4hrs 38 late and went nowhere near Barcelona. It followed the usual track to Lisbon, a straight line - overhead the Channel Is., Brest Peninsula, Bay of Biscay and on into Lisbon.
I noticed that a number of TAP flights, that evening suffered severe delays of between 1 and 4 hours (both arriving and departing) but their flight from Heathrow arrived on time as did BA 504 from LHR. Your inbound flight was followed by another, on time, EZ arrival from Manchester.
There does not seem to have been any weather disruption at Lisbon, save for some pretty sporty gusts late afternoon
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RealFish
The plane flew LGW-NCE-LGW all early.
Then it went LGW-BCN-LGW and that is where the delay was picked up.
Then it went LGW-LIS-LGW and as the previous sector was late this was also late.
Comparing delays to other airlines in LIS is a pointless exercise as the delay was picked up in BCN on a previous sector operated by the aircraft.
If you're talking about 07/07/14 then there were no U2 arrivals into LIS that day from Manchester.
Then it went LGW-BCN-LGW and that is where the delay was picked up.
Then it went LGW-LIS-LGW and as the previous sector was late this was also late.
Comparing delays to other airlines in LIS is a pointless exercise as the delay was picked up in BCN on a previous sector operated by the aircraft.
If you're talking about 07/07/14 then there were no U2 arrivals into LIS that day from Manchester.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, whilst by no means an expert on compensation rules, it does seem to me that this is an 'operational' delay which should be compensated. I believe the BCN-LGW delay can be blamed on weather but from then on it is an airline issue. I would keep pressing, iles.
EDIT: An extra 4 hours in that awful terminal...........................
EDIT: An extra 4 hours in that awful terminal...........................
Last edited by BOAC; 17th Jul 2014 at 09:12.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure there was some nasty weather that day. But the reason for delay was not incurred on your flight nor on the one immediately preceding it. However, a positive decision was taken to use a delayed aircraft, running four hours late and run your flight the same four hours late. That's why you have spare aircraft and standby crews - or cough up!
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 17th Jul 2014 at 22:40. Reason: swap "just" for "the same" - trying to say what I mean.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That would not make much sense operationally. The LGW-LIS-LGW crew operated a two sector day. Therefore they have a lot of slack in the FDP allowed and there was very little chance of that crew exceeding their hours as it was just a two sector day.
Spare aircraft and calling in an ENTIRE new crew and a spare jet to operate a moderate delay would not be an efficient use of resources. A spare crew and jet are send on rescue flights where there is a risk of people be stuck/flights cancelled. There was very little chance of this occurring on this flight therefore the airline would have protected its standby coverage in case it really hit the fan on another flint and quite rightly so.
If the airport standby jet and crew were sent to LIS and another flight went AOG or crew out of hours due to delays then that fight would need to be cancelled as the standby is covering a delayed LIS flight, you have up to 180 adults plus babies stuck for the night. It could be that the airport standby jet/crew could have easily rescued said flight but because it was covering a moderate delay, then they're all stuck for the night. I'd hate to be the one who has to tell passengers that they could have been home that night, but instead the rescue jet was sent to LIS to cover what would be a slight delay in comparison to their's.
Getting people where they need to be is always the priority and delays will be accepted in order to protect the program. That may sound cynical but you need to pragmatic. A four hour delay vs. 180 people stuck and 180 hotel nights potentially then it really is a no brainer not to mention the human side of it all.
If you are unhappy with the result then my advice would be to raise it with the CAA and get them to look over it.
Spare aircraft and calling in an ENTIRE new crew and a spare jet to operate a moderate delay would not be an efficient use of resources. A spare crew and jet are send on rescue flights where there is a risk of people be stuck/flights cancelled. There was very little chance of this occurring on this flight therefore the airline would have protected its standby coverage in case it really hit the fan on another flint and quite rightly so.
If the airport standby jet and crew were sent to LIS and another flight went AOG or crew out of hours due to delays then that fight would need to be cancelled as the standby is covering a delayed LIS flight, you have up to 180 adults plus babies stuck for the night. It could be that the airport standby jet/crew could have easily rescued said flight but because it was covering a moderate delay, then they're all stuck for the night. I'd hate to be the one who has to tell passengers that they could have been home that night, but instead the rescue jet was sent to LIS to cover what would be a slight delay in comparison to their's.
Getting people where they need to be is always the priority and delays will be accepted in order to protect the program. That may sound cynical but you need to pragmatic. A four hour delay vs. 180 people stuck and 180 hotel nights potentially then it really is a no brainer not to mention the human side of it all.
If you are unhappy with the result then my advice would be to raise it with the CAA and get them to look over it.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lichfield UK
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're talking about 07/07/14 then there were no U2 arrivals into LIS that day from Manchester
Apologies - it was RYR
On the substantive point, I agree with Piltdown and BOAC. That there was no apparent resilience built into the schedule seems an operational / business judgement.
Apologies - it was RYR
On the substantive point, I agree with Piltdown and BOAC. That there was no apparent resilience built into the schedule seems an operational / business judgement.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most airlines these days have short turnarounds and very little fat in the schedule. Whilst this may be a contributing factor no padding or fat in the schedule is going to make a four hour delay go unnoticed. There preceding two flights had turnarounds of 40 and 35 minutes which is in excess of the 25 minute aim. I would be interesting in hearing if the way an airline schedules flights is acknowledged as a contributing factor to a complaint. If it is then I see hard times ahead for the airlines and significantly increased fares for all.
On that note, surely if snow or LVPs hit LHR and there are severe delays then based on the notion above then although it is a weather delay I could still make an EU claim as British Airways choose to operate from such a slot restricted airport which is more prone to severe disruption than most?
On that note, surely if snow or LVPs hit LHR and there are severe delays then based on the notion above then although it is a weather delay I could still make an EU claim as British Airways choose to operate from such a slot restricted airport which is more prone to severe disruption than most?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ineeed - your points on the 'economics' are vaild, but the counter to them is that if Easy wish to operate that way they must be prepared to cough up (thanks, PM...
) when it does go to poo-poo and they trigger a qualifying delay.
As to your last paragraph, I do not understand your logic! SnoCLo i NOT the airlines' fault.
) when it does go to poo-poo and they trigger a qualifying delay.As to your last paragraph, I do not understand your logic! SnoCLo i NOT the airlines' fault.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't necessarily mean sloclo. I mean snow hampering the airport severely. Perhaps the fog example is the better one. If fog hits most airports it slows things down but it doesn't grind things to a halt and cause mass disruption to the domestic network.
LHR is severely hampered in ways which other airports are just not and in terms of flights, BA choose to cancel them, but they blame the weather. The weather is a contributing factor, but it is the fact that it is LHR that means they are unable to cope they they decided to operate from there.
It is their commercial decision to operate into LHR and to CANX the domestics (to strategically protect their long haul, much like U2's strategic use of its standby aircraft) yet they can still blame the weather.
If they had operated from any other London airport their operation would likely be able to continue but because it is LHR then they're pretty much screwed. That is their decision to operate from there. So to play devil's advocate then weather does not qualify for compensation under EU261. However If my airline operated from an airport that is not so slot restricted then there's a good chance my flight would have gotten away despite the fog. But because they operate from LHR I could put in a claim against them?
LGW/LTN/STN slow down under LVPs but they do not collapse in a heap like LHR does. BA could operate their flights from there so surely I have a claim against them as their decision to operate for, LHR has left them unable to deliver me to my destination in a reasonable timescale/not at all?
LHR is severely hampered in ways which other airports are just not and in terms of flights, BA choose to cancel them, but they blame the weather. The weather is a contributing factor, but it is the fact that it is LHR that means they are unable to cope they they decided to operate from there.
It is their commercial decision to operate into LHR and to CANX the domestics (to strategically protect their long haul, much like U2's strategic use of its standby aircraft) yet they can still blame the weather.
If they had operated from any other London airport their operation would likely be able to continue but because it is LHR then they're pretty much screwed. That is their decision to operate from there. So to play devil's advocate then weather does not qualify for compensation under EU261. However If my airline operated from an airport that is not so slot restricted then there's a good chance my flight would have gotten away despite the fog. But because they operate from LHR I could put in a claim against them?
LGW/LTN/STN slow down under LVPs but they do not collapse in a heap like LHR does. BA could operate their flights from there so surely I have a claim against them as their decision to operate for, LHR has left them unable to deliver me to my destination in a reasonable timescale/not at all?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the BCN-LGW delay can be blamed on weather but from then on it is an airline issue. I would keep pressing, iles.
One thing for sure is that ALL carriers will try and fob you off at least twice. When they eventually decide the battle is lost they will pay up but on the basis of a "goodwill" gesture and still without admitting any failure on their part. It's a complete farce! The whole experience has only made me even more determined to pursue a claim to the bitter end in any future event.