Suspicious Activity on an AF flight from MAN-CDG. Advice Needed.
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Suspicious Activity on an AF flight from MAN-CDG. Advice Needed.
Hello,
As you can see, I just signed up. Sincere apologies if I have put this in the wrong place but I have a question that I hope experienced pilots and flight crews in the know can provide me with sound advice on ASAP.
The account is rather long. However I believe it is important I get some feedback.
I'm a very regular flyer and I was recently on a journey from the UK to HKG with AF. My route was MAN-CDG-HKG. The first leg from Manchester to Paris CDG was an A318. I was seated in economy, near to the back, in row 18C, about 5 from the back. For the next bit, you'll have to excuse my 'profiling'.
Sat directly in front of me, in rows 17B and 17C were two young, early-mid twenties, north african/middle eastern men. If I had to guess nationality, i'd say Egyptian/Lebanese.
Several rows in front of them, and on the other side of the plane was an older gentlemen, aged around 50, who seemed to know them, again of middle eastern/north african descent, sat in (i'd estimate) row 14D.
The entire time - boarding, taxi, take off and during the first half of the flight, the older man was turned around, conversing regularly and rather seriously with the two younger men. I couldn't recognise the language, but it wasn't European.
As the flight went on, the two men in front became more 'busy' - I could see through the small gap in the seat that they were both arched over their unfolded tray tables (they had not taken any food or drinks) and were busily working away at something co-operatively. The older gentleman in 14D was now permanantly turned around.
About 35 minutes into the flight, one of their cell phones rang. Yes, mid-flight. The guy in 17C answered and talked for about 30 seconds-1 minute. At this point, a middle aged businessman sat adjacent to them, in 17D, began looking across at them very dubiously, as if he was suspicious about their actions too. He kept an almost constant, suspicious stare on them, maybe trying to get their attention, as if to say "what the hell are you doing?". At least he was in the advantage of seeing what they were doing. I could only see through the gap. During the course of the flight, one of them men got up two times to go to the bathroom.
Then, with descent into Paris underway, both men got up and went to the rear lavatory. One of them came back after about 2-3 minutes, while the other stayed a good 10 minutes, well after the fasten seatbelt sign had been illuminated.
The guy who returned early went back to working on whatever it was he was working on before, again crouched over his still unfolded tray table and moving very quickly, and nervously. The older businessman looked very concerned at this point, as was I. Nothing was happening yet, but it felt like something was about to. The lone guy in seat 17B then used his phone to sent a text message (still in the air at this stage, again, defying the rules on mobile phone use on board a plane). I could see in gap that he was typing characters on his phone and sending them, but couldn't read what they were.
Finally, with only a few minutes to go until landing, the other guy returned from his seat and fastened up. The older guy in 14D began looking around again at this point, and conversing with them again.
Despite my (and i'd guess the businessman's) apprehensions that something was about to happen, nothing did and we landed safely.
However, while taxiing off the runway to the gate, one of the younger men made a phone call. Again, he was not supposed to. He then talked to whoever it was the whole way to the gate.
Then, once we came to a stop and everyone got up for their luggage, I noticed the two younger guys and the older gentleman making contact with a fourth man who I hadn't noticed before, again of middle eastern/north african descent, and again in his early twenties, sat a few rows back and on the other side - i'd estimate row 20F.
If that wasn't enough, the 4 of them turned up together at my connecting gate for the CDG-HKG leg and stood about just outside the gate waiting for the flight to be called even though there were plenty of seats. I didn't see them on the next flight. It was a large 773 and I was again near the back. The next time I saw them was on arrival to Hong Kong outside the terminal at the bus stands. It looked as if they were searching around for a bus to Tung Chung (which isn't anywhere near the city centre).
I realise all of this may not mean anything. But I do feel obliged to ask for advice on whether I should let some kind of authority know. It may be nothing, but it could be something. Like I said, I am a frequent flyer and therefore don't get suspicious about just anything, but i'll be honest and say that those few moments as we were about to land in Paris, I did actually think something was going to happen. Afterwards I considered it could be a dry run. Could it be? Do you all see this kind of thing a lot? Is it just unfair profiling coupled with some bizarre albeit innocent behaviour? In my mind, it is very odd behaviour: the 4 men being separated despite knowing each other, the activity in the seat, the phone calls and texts, the long excursions to the toilet, and of course their nervous demeanor. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but having done a google search before posting here, it does sound just like accounts of past "dry runs". But I have no real authority to judge.
So, could someone please give me an honest and blunt synopsis of what they think. It would be much appreciated. Thank you.
As you can see, I just signed up. Sincere apologies if I have put this in the wrong place but I have a question that I hope experienced pilots and flight crews in the know can provide me with sound advice on ASAP.
The account is rather long. However I believe it is important I get some feedback.
I'm a very regular flyer and I was recently on a journey from the UK to HKG with AF. My route was MAN-CDG-HKG. The first leg from Manchester to Paris CDG was an A318. I was seated in economy, near to the back, in row 18C, about 5 from the back. For the next bit, you'll have to excuse my 'profiling'.
Sat directly in front of me, in rows 17B and 17C were two young, early-mid twenties, north african/middle eastern men. If I had to guess nationality, i'd say Egyptian/Lebanese.
Several rows in front of them, and on the other side of the plane was an older gentlemen, aged around 50, who seemed to know them, again of middle eastern/north african descent, sat in (i'd estimate) row 14D.
The entire time - boarding, taxi, take off and during the first half of the flight, the older man was turned around, conversing regularly and rather seriously with the two younger men. I couldn't recognise the language, but it wasn't European.
As the flight went on, the two men in front became more 'busy' - I could see through the small gap in the seat that they were both arched over their unfolded tray tables (they had not taken any food or drinks) and were busily working away at something co-operatively. The older gentleman in 14D was now permanantly turned around.
About 35 minutes into the flight, one of their cell phones rang. Yes, mid-flight. The guy in 17C answered and talked for about 30 seconds-1 minute. At this point, a middle aged businessman sat adjacent to them, in 17D, began looking across at them very dubiously, as if he was suspicious about their actions too. He kept an almost constant, suspicious stare on them, maybe trying to get their attention, as if to say "what the hell are you doing?". At least he was in the advantage of seeing what they were doing. I could only see through the gap. During the course of the flight, one of them men got up two times to go to the bathroom.
Then, with descent into Paris underway, both men got up and went to the rear lavatory. One of them came back after about 2-3 minutes, while the other stayed a good 10 minutes, well after the fasten seatbelt sign had been illuminated.
The guy who returned early went back to working on whatever it was he was working on before, again crouched over his still unfolded tray table and moving very quickly, and nervously. The older businessman looked very concerned at this point, as was I. Nothing was happening yet, but it felt like something was about to. The lone guy in seat 17B then used his phone to sent a text message (still in the air at this stage, again, defying the rules on mobile phone use on board a plane). I could see in gap that he was typing characters on his phone and sending them, but couldn't read what they were.
Finally, with only a few minutes to go until landing, the other guy returned from his seat and fastened up. The older guy in 14D began looking around again at this point, and conversing with them again.
Despite my (and i'd guess the businessman's) apprehensions that something was about to happen, nothing did and we landed safely.
However, while taxiing off the runway to the gate, one of the younger men made a phone call. Again, he was not supposed to. He then talked to whoever it was the whole way to the gate.
Then, once we came to a stop and everyone got up for their luggage, I noticed the two younger guys and the older gentleman making contact with a fourth man who I hadn't noticed before, again of middle eastern/north african descent, and again in his early twenties, sat a few rows back and on the other side - i'd estimate row 20F.
If that wasn't enough, the 4 of them turned up together at my connecting gate for the CDG-HKG leg and stood about just outside the gate waiting for the flight to be called even though there were plenty of seats. I didn't see them on the next flight. It was a large 773 and I was again near the back. The next time I saw them was on arrival to Hong Kong outside the terminal at the bus stands. It looked as if they were searching around for a bus to Tung Chung (which isn't anywhere near the city centre).
I realise all of this may not mean anything. But I do feel obliged to ask for advice on whether I should let some kind of authority know. It may be nothing, but it could be something. Like I said, I am a frequent flyer and therefore don't get suspicious about just anything, but i'll be honest and say that those few moments as we were about to land in Paris, I did actually think something was going to happen. Afterwards I considered it could be a dry run. Could it be? Do you all see this kind of thing a lot? Is it just unfair profiling coupled with some bizarre albeit innocent behaviour? In my mind, it is very odd behaviour: the 4 men being separated despite knowing each other, the activity in the seat, the phone calls and texts, the long excursions to the toilet, and of course their nervous demeanor. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but having done a google search before posting here, it does sound just like accounts of past "dry runs". But I have no real authority to judge.
So, could someone please give me an honest and blunt synopsis of what they think. It would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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No, I did not.
1) I was rushing to my connecting flight
2) I was, like a lot of people, worried about making a scene when it may have been innocent. I know, maybe a mistake.
1) I was rushing to my connecting flight
2) I was, like a lot of people, worried about making a scene when it may have been innocent. I know, maybe a mistake.
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I know some air france aircrafts are fitted with equipment that enables using the cell phone during flight. So the cell phone use can be a normal thing.
About the rest... would you feel the same if they are french or from other european country?
About the rest... would you feel the same if they are french or from other european country?
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"About the rest... would you feel the same if they are french or from other european country?"
You are right Coto, I probably wouldn't. But then i'm damned if I do and damned if I don't! Really just what I already said about profiling.
You are right Coto, I probably wouldn't. But then i'm damned if I do and damned if I don't! Really just what I already said about profiling.
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Then I think you have answered the question for yourself.
If your connecting flight, and or the thought of making an ass of yourself was more important at the time, why should it be any less so now?
35 minutes into the flight the cellphone wouldn't make a call nor would it receive an incoming one. Cellphones do have a lot of secondary functions these days of course, which is why so many of them have a "flight safe" mode facility. If the phone was being used for calls whilst taxiing in, it shouldn't have been, however your perpetrator wouldn't be the first person to be doing that on any given day. As for going to the toilet, one for 2-3 minutes and the other for nearly 10 minutes, I am not sure that requires any obvious comment.
I can't help feeling that anybody with malicious intentions, would not be going out of their way to draw as much attention to themselves as you say these people were. However if you were sufficiently concerned, there was nothing preventing you from raising those concerns discreetly with one of the cabin crew.
Given that you travelled some 7500 miles in the company of these passengers without anything happening that went beyond arousing your suspicions, why do you think anybody will care now, or be able to do much about it now?
If your connecting flight, and or the thought of making an ass of yourself was more important at the time, why should it be any less so now?
35 minutes into the flight the cellphone wouldn't make a call nor would it receive an incoming one. Cellphones do have a lot of secondary functions these days of course, which is why so many of them have a "flight safe" mode facility. If the phone was being used for calls whilst taxiing in, it shouldn't have been, however your perpetrator wouldn't be the first person to be doing that on any given day. As for going to the toilet, one for 2-3 minutes and the other for nearly 10 minutes, I am not sure that requires any obvious comment.
I can't help feeling that anybody with malicious intentions, would not be going out of their way to draw as much attention to themselves as you say these people were. However if you were sufficiently concerned, there was nothing preventing you from raising those concerns discreetly with one of the cabin crew.
Given that you travelled some 7500 miles in the company of these passengers without anything happening that went beyond arousing your suspicions, why do you think anybody will care now, or be able to do much about it now?
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If your connecting flight, and or the thought of making an ass of yourself was more important at the time, why should it be any less so now?
35 minutes into the flight the cellphone wouldn't make a call nor would it receive an incoming one. Cellphones do have a lot of secondary functions these days of course, which is why so many of them have a "flight safe" mode facility.
If the phone was being used for calls whilst taxiing in, it shouldn't have been, however your perpetrator wouldn't be the first person to be doing that on any given day. As for going to the toilet, one for 2-3 minutes and the other for nearly 10 minutes, I am not sure that requires any obvious comment.
I can't help feeling that anybody with malicious intentions, would not be going out of their way to draw as much attention to themselves as you say these people were.
However if you were sufficiently concerned, there was nothing preventing you from raising those concerns discreetly with one of the cabin crew.
Given that you travelled some 7500 miles in the company of these passengers without anything happening that went beyond arousing your suspicions, why do you think anybody will care now, or be able to do much about it now?
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Then fine, although some of what you say is self contradictory,
If you believe a crime was committed or may be about to be committed, then you should contact your local police force who will either make a report, or will direct you to the relevant department.
The fact that you say the cabin crew witnessed the events you describe, and were not sufficiently concerned, may be because they see it all the time. Again I cannot understand why these "observations and concerns" have taken on a greater significance for you now, than they obviously did then? However if you do believe you have observed something that warrants a report for the purpose of crime prevention, then you should do what you think is right. I suspect the response you will get will be pretty much along the same lines as this one, but if something gives you valid cause for concern now that didn't some time ago, that would seem to be your only realistic option.
You asked for an honest and blunt synopsis, so there it is.
Whether you think it is possible or not, I can assure you that a call was received mid-flight. Either that or he was playing with his ringtones.
The fact that you say the cabin crew witnessed the events you describe, and were not sufficiently concerned, may be because they see it all the time. Again I cannot understand why these "observations and concerns" have taken on a greater significance for you now, than they obviously did then? However if you do believe you have observed something that warrants a report for the purpose of crime prevention, then you should do what you think is right. I suspect the response you will get will be pretty much along the same lines as this one, but if something gives you valid cause for concern now that didn't some time ago, that would seem to be your only realistic option.
You asked for an honest and blunt synopsis, so there it is.
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Pprune is a lot of things to a lot of people, but not a crime-prevention organisation. If you have serious concerns or suspicions, don't post on an online forum, go to the authorities who have the "authority" to do something about your suspicions.
If you thought you saw someone acting suspiciously around a child, or around a house, would you post on pprune?
If you thought you saw someone acting suspiciously around a child, or around a house, would you post on pprune?
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With out a shadow of a doubt I would report this to the authorities in your home country. Not the local police station but an intelligence hotline or similar. Their actions have been enough to raise suspicion - not only yours - so it is worth reporting. It's not a matter of you being convinced that they were definitely up to no good. They could be entirely innocent - and more than likely are - but your information could be the last piece of a puzzle that anti-terrorist (or anti drug/people smuggling for that matter) investigators are looking for to prevent an attack. Likewise - it could be the first piece of the puzzle that gives the authorities a new lead.
They're not about to arrest these guys straight up on the basis of a "suspicious activity report". They'll investigate accordingly - and you won't hear back from them either way.
Don't worry about upsetting people because "you're only thinking this because they were arab". That's irrelevant. Racial profiling is wrong when you are treating people as terrorists simply because they look like they're from the mid-east. In this case you're making the report because their behaviour has been suspect.
You've got nothing to lose by reporting it.
They're not about to arrest these guys straight up on the basis of a "suspicious activity report". They'll investigate accordingly - and you won't hear back from them either way.
Don't worry about upsetting people because "you're only thinking this because they were arab". That's irrelevant. Racial profiling is wrong when you are treating people as terrorists simply because they look like they're from the mid-east. In this case you're making the report because their behaviour has been suspect.
You've got nothing to lose by reporting it.
If you had any concern you should have advised the cabin crew.
To do this you look at the overhead panel or on the IFE and you will see a little button with a symbol that represents a person. Press it and you will note that possible a tone will be heard and a small light will illuminate on the overhead panel. Shortly a cabin crew member will come to you and you can explain your concerns. I believe they receive some kind of training as part of their job covering these issues.
There are so many possible innocent explanations for what you saw but I realise that as you profiled these people you got scared. But you chose to do nothing. If I had been as scared as you and feared that something bad was going to happen I would have told the cabin crew - they are best placed to know how to address the situation and best deal with it.
To do this you look at the overhead panel or on the IFE and you will see a little button with a symbol that represents a person. Press it and you will note that possible a tone will be heard and a small light will illuminate on the overhead panel. Shortly a cabin crew member will come to you and you can explain your concerns. I believe they receive some kind of training as part of their job covering these issues.
There are so many possible innocent explanations for what you saw but I realise that as you profiled these people you got scared. But you chose to do nothing. If I had been as scared as you and feared that something bad was going to happen I would have told the cabin crew - they are best placed to know how to address the situation and best deal with it.
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It is irrelevant what cultural background these characters are from. If you were not comfortable on the flight with their suspicious activity you should have immediately found the CSD or purser, told them what you had seen so far and asked them to form their own opinion of the people concerned. It is not racist and you have been scared into being politically correct by the nonsense we see on a daily basis in the UK where everyone is frightened to speak.
I am sure that the gentlemen concerned were perfectly innocent but you should have had the crew decide that at the time
I am sure that the gentlemen concerned were perfectly innocent but you should have had the crew decide that at the time
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About the cell phones
Although we'd always assumed that Ryanair would be the first to roll out Airbus' OnAir in-flight calling system, it looks like Air France is going to take the prize -- the airline is now rolling out Mobile On-Air 2.5G cell service on select international flights. Passengers on European-route Airbus A318s can now use their phones to send and receive texts, MMS, and email over the system when the new "no mobiles" light is switched off, and voice calling support will be rolled in the second half of the year-long trial. Phones are used just like on the ground, with a picocell on board the aircraft bouncing signals off a satellite, and billing is handled by customer's regular carrier, with rates "comparable" to regular international calling. All this, of course, while FAA twiddles its thumbs for the "foreseeable future." Oh well -- at least we've got in-flight WiFi to tide us over.
This article is from 2007.
This article is from 2007.
My five cents worth. I would have advised the Senior F/A. As soon as I was back in my home country I would have presented a written report to the appropriate counter terrorism authorities - including seat numbers as you did here. They would be able to trace who the pax were and take it from there. We live in dangerous times and better to be safe than sorry. Of course, had you been able to understand the language, it may have made a significant difference to your perception of what was going on.
I for one look forward to the day when chatting to my colleagues on the plane results in the Chekist Overlords coming to call on me at 4am.
Last edited by Load Toad; 7th Sep 2009 at 10:35.
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I think you need more than 'suggestive looks' to find suspicions of terrorism! I can't really see a great deal wrong. Using the phone inflight is a bit naughty, but they were probably a bunch of business men with something going on. Or playing a group game on Nintendo DS Lites! What exactly was so suspicious (apart from looking of middle eastern origin)? Exactly why was it supposed to be a 'dry run'? I thought we had moved on from every person with a sun tan was supposed to be a terrorist planning something! A load of nonsense that I have just wasted 10 minutes of my life rereading trying to find something of substance! Does anyone really think the authorities have time to waste because you had 'an uncomfortable feeling'. And gentlemen of suntanned appearance must not crowd around the boarding gate? Think about it- are we really serious about this?
No, still a prevalent attitude in the USA. A bit unusual in the UK however. Possibly something to do with that dreadful film "United 93" being (apparently) shown on UK television last night.
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You say that the people were two together and one sat apart. Was the flight full? If so they may have been late to check in and ended up separated.
I can't understand why you didn't speak to anyone inflight.
If it bothers you that much still why not call the terrorism hotline or wahtever it is called.
I can't understand why you didn't speak to anyone inflight.
If it bothers you that much still why not call the terrorism hotline or wahtever it is called.
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About what? The man had a feverish imagination and saw in some suntanned gentlemen the slightest imagined signs of a terrorist conspiracy. We all know Arab looking people are not allowed to sit apart and still communicate- it means they must be about to launch an attack, doesn't it? If they are hunched over talking, they are obviously assembling a liquid bomb and discussing 'do you put the red wire into the white hole or the dark hole Ibrahim? You did bring the detonator, didn't you.............IBRAHIM?'
Stop pandering to someone who has an over active imagination, objects to suntanned people travelling together and talking to each other, and worst of all, possibly looking a little 'furtive' (=slightly nervous and anxious like most people are flying). This thread is sheer lunacy. It is also pandering towards an unjustified element of a whiff of racism. It should be locked and deleted. NOTHING HAPPENED! It was all in his overactive imagination.
Stop pandering to someone who has an over active imagination, objects to suntanned people travelling together and talking to each other, and worst of all, possibly looking a little 'furtive' (=slightly nervous and anxious like most people are flying). This thread is sheer lunacy. It is also pandering towards an unjustified element of a whiff of racism. It should be locked and deleted. NOTHING HAPPENED! It was all in his overactive imagination.
Exactly. Just because the most destructive aviation event in recent times was caused by people of middle eastern origin, not to mention several on the ground recently, and many people of middle eastern origin are publically advocating further attacks, that doesn't mean that we should be any more suspicious of this group 
If it had been a group of nuns, I suspect the OP would have been less worried - and rightly so. Nuns don't have a history of performing, or a promise to further perform, terrorist atrocities.
Jeez, lose the naiivety and get into the real world. Ethnicity is one small piece of the puzzle that helps piece these things together. I'm an Englishman living abroad. If English people here had been comitting acts of terrorism, I would fully expect to have more attention paid to me than to the local citizens, because it's only common sense - all the more so if I was performing several other suspicious acts in line with previous events. If I wasn't, then no attention is likely to ever be raised - and if the gentlemen mentioned here hadn't been acting oddly, then no mention would ever have been made. I realise, however, that common sense is something that the PC crowd do not possess.
If it had been a group of nuns, I suspect the OP would have been less worried - and rightly so. Nuns don't have a history of performing, or a promise to further perform, terrorist atrocities.
Jeez, lose the naiivety and get into the real world. Ethnicity is one small piece of the puzzle that helps piece these things together. I'm an Englishman living abroad. If English people here had been comitting acts of terrorism, I would fully expect to have more attention paid to me than to the local citizens, because it's only common sense - all the more so if I was performing several other suspicious acts in line with previous events. If I wasn't, then no attention is likely to ever be raised - and if the gentlemen mentioned here hadn't been acting oddly, then no mention would ever have been made. I realise, however, that common sense is something that the PC crowd do not possess.