vendetta

Hey guys ,

my apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but how safe is AA in these days of seeming financial crisis? I'll be flying with them in about two weeks and I'm already ****ting my pants. Yeah, I'm scared of flying.

I know, statistically flying is the safest mode of transportation etc, but the fact remains that there still are fatal incidents happening, and I always think that my flight's gonna be next. Especially since I read about the FAA maintenance issue earlier this year, and those crashes in 2001 and 1979 (which, according to what I read, was due to a maintenance mistake as well). I know those probably won't happen again the exact same way, and the airline learns from mistakes, but I'm frightened nonetheless.

I just want to make it safe to my destination. Any calming words would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

vendetta

AA pilot: airline mentality often cost over safety - Airline - It's Safe! FAA (Finally!) - No, It Isn't! So...?

SNS3Guppy

I've been flying professionally since I was a teenager. I skydive, and fly airplanes ranging from low level types of operations, very close to the ground and in the mountains, to high altitude large and small turbojets. I don't like heights. I never have.

Find something to take your mind off the idea that you're high above the ground. You probably have little fear of riding in a car. In a car, the bottom of the car is just beneath your feet. In an airplane, it's no different. The floor of the airplane isn't thousands of feet beneath you, but directly below your seat. You're not high up at all, but sitting in a seat, no different than in your home or in a car. Concentrate on that.

Take something to read. If I'm not sitting in the cockpit, I either read, or sleep when I travel. I don't enjoy sitting for any period of time without something to do, so I study, read, or sleep when I'm going from one place to another.

Turbulence can be upsetting, but if you've been on a boat on a river, then you understand turbulence. If you've been in a car on a rough dirt road, you understand turbulence. As an airplane moves through air, it may do so smoothly, or with a few bumps, these are no different than an uneven road or the swirls and turbulence found in a river or on the ocean. The airplane isn't going to fall or become uncontrollable, it's just a little bouncy. If you can tolerate it in a car, you can tolerate it in the airplane. No difference, really.

Some people find that eating in advance helps, some find that going without eating helps. Find out what works for you. If you can keep fresh air flowing over you by using the overhead vent, you may find this calming and some relief to any airsickness or uneasiness you might feel.

I find that sitting by a window helps most people. I much prefer to sit by a window. It's less convenient if you need to get up to go to the toilet, but I like to look out the window. I feel like I'm in a big tube with no sense of up or down if I sit near the aisle. Window seats help. Being able to look at a distant point and reduce the sensation of motion helps.

Personally, turbulence and bumps tend to rock me to sleep. Try it a little and you might find it works for you, too.

Alex 009

Hate to be a party pooper, but Jetstar is essentially the budget arm of QANTAS. I would have no hesitation on getting on a Qantas aircraft tomorrow, but due to savings at the moment my next few flights are on Jetstar. Anyway aircraft wings are designed to have wing flex in them. Check out a picture of a 777 on the ground, and then just after rotation.

Also this might help:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...mb-476x237.jpg

As for ways to help, try and keep your mind occupied elsewhere. Enjoy a film/book/magazine, and just try telling yourself that the aircraft is more than capable of handling the turbulence.

Biggles225

I'm pretty sure most major airlines will run a 'fear of flying' course, which are effective in the majority of cases. Give the airline a ring or google 'fear of flying course' or somesuch, that should get you there.
I know what its like to be with a nervous passenger, I've had the circulation in my hands cut off more than once when she saw the wings flexing! Getting bounced about a bit is uncomfortable, but aircraft are designed to cope with it. Seriously, you are far safer in an aircraft than you are crossing the road!
Incidentally I was told by my father many years ago that no-one is afraid of flying - they are afraid of crashing, not that that helps!

Good luck, I hope you'll soon find flying is the nicest way to travel.

Alex 009

Without stating the obvious, how many cars do you see on the road every day, and then how many aircraft do you see when you look up?

As for Qantas with the 767s (I love 757s, and wish they were down under), I just love feeling the power of a lightly loaded one on takeoff-the power you feel! And the 767 is still currently in production, so a good aircraft.

Rainboe

Your fear of wings snapping is as irrational as looking at cars on the roads and wondering how axles can take the weight and why wheels don't keep snapping off? When was the last time you recall aircraft wings snapping off? Accidents do happen, aeroplanes do occassionally crash for some reason, but put it into context with the number of flights taken a day. If your number is up, it's up. You might as well sit back and relax and not spend your life worrying about it- spoil your life all the time for worrying about the extremely remote possibility of a very rare accident?

There's enough deluded people out there spending their lives worrying about being watched all the time by a mythical man with a white beard up in the sky and terrified of being judged at that moment when they finally pop their clogs! What a waste of time! Relax, enjoy yourself, follow your conscience and forget about 'deities'- they don't exist, forget about the extremely remote possibility you will be involved in a crash, the wings aren't going to break, the aeroplane is your tool for going from A to B, look forward to your destination and enjoy the view, or just get absorbed in a good book. Travel with the best- in your case it is a good investment. There's enough real stuff out there to worry about- road accidents, cancer, health, money. Don't add ridiculous things you don't need to worry about!

Biggles225

Come on Rainboe thats a bit harsh to someone who is genuinely afraid. Irrational it may be but fear is like being 4 years old and terrified the bogeyman in the wardrobe is coming to get you, your Mum has told you 100 times there isnt one but you know it just might be there waiting for her to go away!

I'm with SNS3Guppy's solution, plus I always thought I was one of the few who didn't like heights at any price.

TightSlot

I've merged two threads expressing anxiety about flying into this one - If this thread becomes useful, I'll cross-refer in FAQ for newbies (the FAQ thread that newbies rarely read, that is )

Cunliffe

yourfather
This thought may help.
Some years ago I was sitting next to an American couple on a European flight. The lady was very nervous clinging to her husband for dear life.
He said to her "You don't need to worry, this is like being in a stretch limo with a professional chauffeur upfront."
Transpired this was his first visit to Europe since flying Mustangs in WW2.

nebpor

Yourfather:

Many years ago, I too picked up an irrational fear of flying - having to fly every week with my job it didn't make life pleasant.

My solution?

Read ... read everything you can about flying - it's why I found this forum originally. Become a flight engineer in your head! I was already a very, very technical IT guy - now I can understand pretty much every system on the plane, how it works, and how little it matters if it stops working once you realise the redundancy.

Get on wikipedia - look up "wing", go watch the videos of Airbus testing the wings on the A380 to see how strong they are .... go watch the videos of engines being tested, go read up on how the engine actually works and why they are so reliable!

I don't claim to be completely over it, but my irrational fear was the engines would both stop .... I've got over that one at least. It was silly - I'm a petrolhead ... in the 200K miles I've ever driven an engine has never cut out on me, and that pile of crap gets inspected every 3-6 months and then it's just an oil change .... a plane engine gets virtually taken to bits on regular occassions, and the results all fed back into the design/maintenance so everyone gets to share the results!

Plus speak to the pilots if you get a chance - trust them, they are great folk and abject professionals ... plus they love answering our daft questions

I once commented about how our rate of accelleration had changed on take-off as we were going down the runway (the rate slowed, had never felt this before) after a journey out of Heathrow one day and the Captain seemed pleased I had even noticed! He then explained the score (can't remember exact reasoning) and take off has never bothered me again ... although it's the first 2 mins in flight that are the worst for me. As soon as the "bong" sounds for the Cabin Crew to do their job I know the Pilot is happy about the safety of his crew, hence I relax also at that point.

Hope that helps - you'll get there .... but only YOU can get you there!
Stephen

beachfront71

Another way to think of this is that there is an abundance of pilots who are say 55 or 60 years old... Many of them have been flying for 30 years and even longer if you include military service.

Imagine waking up every day and flying a plane for 6-8 hours... now it is a bit more complicated then that but you get the point... You wake up and go work at the bank, shop, etc... They go work in the cockpit.

Many have families, are college graduates, & extremley smart but for some reason choose to fly airplanes even though they might be able to get a job in another industry that would pay them more money... This is not because they like the dangerous job of being a pilot but just the opposite..The enjoy being a polot and understand how reliable planes really are.. They have been through the courses and understand just how hard it is to make a plane "fall" out of the sky...

If you think for 1 minute a pilot does not think flying is one of the safest forms of transportation you are just fooling yourself.

Now, regarding maintenance, etc.. Look at it this way... Pick the part of the world with the worst maintenance for commercial planes (africa maybe?) and then ask yourself how many times you hear about planes crashing, is it daily, weekly, monthly, yearly? Take thier standards and multiply that by 1,000's and you have most modern countries standards..

OFSO

As an ex-aerospace engineer who misses his work, I often listen on my local airport's approach and departure freqs on my scanner.

Now I won't mention the majority airline which uses that airport 'cos you'll all sneer, but the sheer professionalism of the crew flying those planes is overwhelming, and engenders pure unadulterated TRUST in them when I fly half-a-dozen times a year.

And of course, there's no comparison between these well-trained pilots, and the many incompetant idiots driving in front, behind and beside me when I take to any of the local highways in my car - every day.

Maybe concentrating on the realities of the situation will help ? It does for me - and I'n no stranger to panic attacks, either.

boardingpass

For nervous flyers out there, I fly domestic flights in Italy, where daily I see people praying and then the customary applause after successfully touching down still alive. I therefore feel quite experienced in dealing with nervous passengers. Some prefer to keep quiet and sweat privately, and others ask lots of questions. I've seen people crying out of fear, and even the odd full-blown panic attack. (I do feel so sorry for the passengers who just before take-off have to offload themselves because they can't go through with it out of fear, but it is a serious delay for all the other passengers).

I think you'll feel better if you take a moment once you've found your seat and sat down to mention to a passing crew member that you're a nervous flyer and ask a question like, "has any turbulence been forecast?" You'll be amazed how calming a gentle touch on the shoulder and smile from a cabin crew can be! (Yes, it's all part of the service).

Then, try and remember that planes have no problem flying through turbulence and that provided you're wearing your seatbelt, the worst that can happen is you spill your coffee or red wine on your white shirt. Yes, it can be unsettling and can make some people feel nauseous, but compare it to driving over cobblestones or speed humps - nothing to worry about.

The actual flight itself is safe. Yes, sometimes unfortunately accidents happen on take off or landing, but once you've successfully taken off and the captain has turned off the seatbelt signs, you've got nothing at all to worry about. You can really relax until it's time to land. Really. I've even been hit by lightning and the only concern I've had is whether I've got my bathers for the unscheduled night-stop.

So, that's the flight covered. For the take off, tell yourself that the drive to the airport was much more dangerous (which it was) and you managed that without any problems, so you should be able to get through this. Same for the landing, except divert your attention by remembering that your biggest fear should be not being reunited with your bags, or the taxi driver ripping you off.

Some say you can study the safety card, count the rows to the exits, etc, which as a safety professional, yes, I do encourage you to do, but in practice, if you're a nervous flyer, by dwelling on something that is so unlikely, you could probably make yourself even more nervous. And therefore, you might be better off just focussing on your travel destination and all the lovely things you're going to do when you arrive.

I think nervous passengers feel that way because it is a very unfamiliar environment and they do not feel in control of the situation. I like to therefore suggest a two-pronged approach.

1 - Trust. Trust the pilots who are extremely well trained and professional and between them will have years of experience. Trust the maintenance of the aircraft which has been designed and maintained by professionals and finally confirmed by a pilot before EVERY flight.

2 - It's all relative. Compare it to an everyday situation like being in a car. You're not in direct control of what the other cars are doing, yet you manage to face this real danger every day. If you're middle aged, you probably got your licence about 20+ years ago, and have never had any driver training since. Pilots and crew have constant training and regularly prepare for all kinds of unforeseen situations in simulators and other types of training. We also check everything from A to Z. How often do you check your tyre pressure or amount of oil/coolant/brake fluid before setting out each day? Re-read number 1. You'll be fine.

vendetta

....and yet there are still fatal accidents happening, see my first post. Good maintenance? Then why did this happen?

Maybe in these hard economic times they want to "save time and costs" again.

boardingpass

Vendetta, if you're a nervous flyer, stop reading about airline crashes. Leave that up to the professionals to learn from their mistakes. You've quoted 1979! AA and most airlines today do not save costs by cutting corners on safety. They cut routes, cut service, charge extra, cut bonuses, cut terms and conditions and lay off staff... but that's another thread altogether.

Octopussy2

This is just to say thanks to Boardingpass for taking the time to post - excellent post!

I'm an extremely nervous passenger (I've been known to burst into tears on take-off though I try not to do it in front of colleagues on work trips!!) but I need to keep it under control because I love seeing the world and I'm determined not to pass it on to my children. I'm not going to let an irrational fear stop me doing what I want to do.

Reading Pprune has helped enormously over the last few years, and I'm really grateful to the flight and cabin crew who take the time to post here and answer our daft questions!

SNS3Guppy

Airplanes are mechanical subjects, and machines break. This is a given. Airplanes are maintained in rigid accord with established practices, schedules, methods, and techniques. In times past, where methods have been found inadequate, new practices have taken their place. One can hardly look at an incident several decades in the past and use that for the basis of determining what goes on today.

As an aircraft mechanic and inspector, I strive very hard to achieve not only a high level of professionalism, but an exacting degree of adherence to published data, procedures, and practices. I use calibrated tools. I use only approved parts. I don't rush. I seek help where it's needed. I ask others to oversee my work and double check what I do. I have operated this way for many, many years.

As a pilot, I train not to fly the airplane under normal circumstances, but for emergencies. In a few days I'll return to the simulator for recurrent training. I won't be practicing normal approaches and landings. There won't be but a moment at any given time during each four hour session, when the airplane is operating properly. From the time I climb in and begin to start engines, we will have fires, failures, losses, etc. We'll seldom operate for more than a moment on all four engines; at least one, occasionally two will have failed. We'll have depressurizations, instrument failures, electrical losses, control failures, etc. Engines will stall, catch fire when they're started, runaway, overtemp, and flame-out. Equipment will break. We'll have one emergency after another during takeoff and landing. We'll encounter windshear. Hydraulics will fail. We'll have cargo fires. Every moment of that sim session, plus the two hour brief beforehand, and the two hour brief after, will be nothing but emergencies and working together as a crew to handle them.

Mechanical things break, and the airplane is a mechanical thing. We don't train to operate it when everything is functioning well; that much is a given. We train to handle and operate the airplane normally when things don't work; that is, when things break, we train so that we can operate the airplane as though that were routine. And, it is.

Over the course of my career I've had a number of engine failures. I've had several wings fracture. I've had landing gear fail, depressurization, loss of hydraulics. Partial and complete electrical failures. Several fires. One on board explosion. An individual in the right seat experience a heart attack. Compressor stalls, pump failures, autoflight or navigation failures. Loss of instruments. Severe icing. Brake failures. And so forth. These things happen. They do not happen routinely, but they do happen. The hallmark of a professional in the cockpit is that he or she trains in order to make the emergency into a routine, safe event. We also train and use experience to avoid situations becoming emergencies. We're not paid for the monkey skills of flying the airplane, but for judgement.

When something goes wrong, we have a procedure in place to address it. If I lose a hydraulic pump, for example, I already know in advance which checklist to use, and how to address the problem; it's already been thought out, reviewed, and practiced. Over and over. The airplane has multiple, redundant systems. If I lose one system, other systems take it's place, back up the same items, etc.

I'll say up front that don't like flying in clouds. I never have. I've been doing this for a long time, and have even done weather modification flights in which we sought out thunderstorms to fly through...but I don't like flying when I can't see out. That goes back to the reasons I started flying, though. I began flying because I wanted to be above the earth, and be able to look down and see. (Bearing in mind that I don't like heights...a conundrum I still haven't resolved, decades later). Being in clouds somewhat negates that...as does flying the airplane. Much of what we do is instrument type flying, which involves a lot of reference to the instrument panel in order to make the airplane do what we want it to do.

With this in mind, when we fly, it really doesn't matter if we can see out or not. We could just as easily cover the windscreen with aeronautical charts and block out all the view, and the flight would progress no differently. Likewise, we can takeoff and immediately enter the cloud, and stay in the cloud all the way until landing without any adverse affects; the instruments don't know the difference. When we're flying by instruments, neither do we.

What do I do when there's a lot of turbulence? Two things. Slow down, and seek smoother air. But this really depends what I'm doing. If I'm flying passengers, my first thought is to safety, with a very close second thought to passenger comfort. A change in altitude, or altering flight path may produce a better ride. Airlines and corporate flights go to a lot of trouble to find the smoothest air...that's not always possible...it may be bumpy everywhere, but we really do try. Reports are being passed back and forth by radio between pilots and by air traffic control of turbulence and winds, and it's common to seek different altitudes or routes to produce the best ride for passengers.

When not flying passengers, I also slow down; we have turbulence penetration speeds for the protection of the airplane. Just like approaching a speed bump in a car, you want to slow down not just for comfort, but to go easy on the car. We do the same in the airplane. If we encounter turbulence, we ensure the airplane is within a prescribed speed range which allows for safe operation of the airplane. When we do this, we consider the maximum speeds as well as the minimum speeds; we want to minimize the stresses on the airplane, cargo, and passengers, but also have a healthy safey margin from stalling, too.

Other types of flying may involve frequent flight in turbulence. For many years I was involved in aerial firefighting, which required flight close to terrain and mountains in strong winds. This tends to produce severe turbulence, which was very frequent. I did that with passengers and without, depending on the aircraft and the mission...and in such cases often the mission dictated a low degree of comfort in order to get the job done. Safety was always the priority, but it could be a very rough ride. Those types of operations are very different to airline passenger flying, and you can rest assured that as a passenger, your flight crew will be working hard to find the smoothest air and make the safest flight humanly possible.

What about weather up ahead? What do we know? We know two things. We know what's forecast (and reported), based on our preflight planning. We also know what we can see on radar, along with current reports from other aircraft up ahead. Some radars include logic to predict turbulence to some degree, but radar doesn't actually see turbulence. It sees moisture, and reflects radar energy back from moisture in the atmosphere. If the moisture is being moved around in a way that an advanced radar system can determine might have turbulence, some systems can then display a best guess as to what lies ahead.

In lieu of that, we use our own judgment to look at weather on radar and determine how to go around it, over it, or where acceptable, through it. The general rule of thumb is that the heavier the precipitation (or the more the moisture), the more we avoid that particular area. That may involve a deviation around the weather, it may involve an altitude change to go over the weather, or it may involve picking our way through weather systems. Airline operations are VERY conservative when it comes to flying in weather.

This said, simply because there's moisture in the cloud, doesn't mean it's dangerous or even a rough ride. The type of weather makes all the difference, and that's a big part not only of training a pilot to be a pilot, but ongoing education and experience throughout one's career. So, when we look at the weather ahead, we're using judgment to address what we see as it appears on radar, and even as we see it out the cockpit window.

I normally fly with my radar ranged out about 100 miles or so. I keep it tilted down in cruise much of the time, and clouds or storms between the radar antenna and the ground show up in the distance. I watch them to determine if they disappear as I get closer. If they do, it means I'm well above them. If not, I scan them with the radar to determine the best course of action. Normally I won't see any weather on radar sooner than 150 miles out, and won't see a good picture of it until it's within about 80 miles. Planning is done continuously then, as we get closer to the weather, based on the picture we see. Weather is dynamic, it is constantly changing, and our plan to address it is also therefore constantly changing.

What about water ingestion, you ask? Water ingestion is seldom a problem. It's true that an ungodly amount of water could possibly cause an engine to flame out...but the truth is that it would take a LOT. When flying in rain, we turn on ignitors. If the engine flames-out, we wouldn't know it, because it relights immediately. A turbine engine is constantly alight inside, and by keeping ignition running in turbulence or heavy precipitation, the flame is prevented from going out.

A large turbofan engine is moving much of the air through the fan, not through the engine, and water won't really affect the fan. The gas generator portion of the engine, which is the "jet" portion of the engine, sees but a small portion of the airflow through the engine. Most airline engines today are called high-bypass turbofans, which means that most of the air passing through the engine actually bypasses the engine. You can think of the fan as a propeller; it's just spinning to move air. Water passing through it doesn't enter the engine where it can affect the flame or combustion process inside.

What little moisture does enter is modified as it passes through the engine...first passing through a compressor where the air temperature is increased dramatically, before it's handed over to the turbine section. Most of the airflow is there to cool the engine; very little of it is actually used for the combustion process. Moisture in the air can actually increase the thrust in some cases, as water expands 240 times when vaporized....but much of it just passes through and serves to aid the engine operation, if anything.

A bigger concern is freezing conditions, when ice forms at the fan inlet or on the turbine blades. To account for this, we use hot air from the engine, after it's been compressed inside, to heat the blades in some cases, and the inlet to the engine. This "nacelle anti-ice" serves to protect the engine and prevent damage or flame-outs. Whenever we turn it on or off, we also turn on the ignition, on the remote chance that any ice which has already formed might cause a flame-out as it breaks free or melts. In the airplane I fly, we even have lights which flash that tell us if our engine speed is inadvertantly too low to produce hot enough air for the nacelle anti-ice, and it's smart enough to know the proper engine speeds for a given altitude, and whether we are using the anti-ice or not.

vendetta

@ SNS3Guppy

Thanks for your long detailed reply, it's helped alot. My point wasn't about the maintenance procedures themselves, though. They weren't performed because maintenance didn't know better then - no, they were performed in order to save time and costs (or so it seems from the report). Since your posting to me sounded as though the incident happened because of "outdated" maintenance performance ("In times past, where methods have been found inadequate...") and thus being unlikely to happen again; I'd just like to point out that my point was about saving costs and time, and THAT is not an issue of the past.

THAT was my worry - that poor / rushed maintenance might happen again because of financial and timely pressure. And of course, that it might be the plane I am on.

13Alpha

A few years back I went through a period when I became very nervous about flying. A few things which I found helpful in overcoming my fears:

- Fear of flying can be down to fear of not being in control. So find some ways you can control the situation. For me, I read that seats near the wings were the most stable part of the plane in turbulence, so I always asked for a seat in the middle.

- Being able to look outside at the horizon also helped me. So again, I tried to get a window seat whenever I could.

- Find out more about aviation. The more I learned, particularly about how over-engineered planes are, the better I felt.

- I noticed that I was more nervous on some flights than others and that this wasn't always down to the airline, or the weather, or turbulence, or whatever, but about something I was anxious about _on the ground_
For some people, fear of flying is just a manifestation of anxiety about something else entirely. Is there something else going on in your life which is making you anxious ?

- Keep track of which flights you were most anxious on. Are there any patterns ? I noticed I was more anxious on flights travelling away from home than on those going home. Again, your anxiety might be about what's going to happen to you at your destination, or the fact that you feel you're having to travel somewhere you don't want to.

Since 2005 I've taken, at the latest count, 268 flights on business and quite a few more for leisure and had very few anxious moments . So it is possible to conquer your fears.

Hope this helps - good luck

13Alpha