HELP PA28 Piper warrier Weight Problem
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HELP PA28 Piper warrier Weight Problem
Gday all
I have been flying since January this year at Bankstown airport and have just clocked up 40hours flight time and im almost ready to get my GFPT.
I weight 160kgs and now im being told by my CFI at my flying school that "CASA" said there was a 120kgs weight limit on the PA28 Warriers seats and i cant fly anymore.
Now I called CASA and they said this was a crock of **** but so far when I advised my CFI of this he didnt respond i was hoping someone here could shed some light on this subject as so far i have spent $10k this year and i would like to get my GFPT then my PPL.
Also i have done all my medicals and CASA doesnt have a problem with me.
Thankyou for the help
I have been flying since January this year at Bankstown airport and have just clocked up 40hours flight time and im almost ready to get my GFPT.
I weight 160kgs and now im being told by my CFI at my flying school that "CASA" said there was a 120kgs weight limit on the PA28 Warriers seats and i cant fly anymore.
Now I called CASA and they said this was a crock of **** but so far when I advised my CFI of this he didnt respond i was hoping someone here could shed some light on this subject as so far i have spent $10k this year and i would like to get my GFPT then my PPL.
Also i have done all my medicals and CASA doesnt have a problem with me.
Thankyou for the help
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As far as I know, thee is no specific seat weight limit in the POH, but the W&B charts only go up to 420lbs (about 190kg) for the front row of seats. If you are 160kg, I'm not sure how you have been doing an accurate W&B for any of the dual instruction.
"Crock of ****" doesn't sound like the usual CASA advice.
"Crock of ****" doesn't sound like the usual CASA advice.
The POH does not mention any limitation on weight for the seat.
The CFI could be right as far as some-one in CASA telling him that. As the next step I suggest that you have a chat with the CFI to find out more - specifically to get the reference source for that statement. i.e. what approved data is there that determines this limit that he refers to?
(No need to use the loading graph as the loading form has the moment arms.)
PS - always useful to get statements like that in writing - from CASA or whoever. It seems to focus people's mind when they get to sign their name to something.
The CFI could be right as far as some-one in CASA telling him that. As the next step I suggest that you have a chat with the CFI to find out more - specifically to get the reference source for that statement. i.e. what approved data is there that determines this limit that he refers to?
(No need to use the loading graph as the loading form has the moment arms.)
PS - always useful to get statements like that in writing - from CASA or whoever. It seems to focus people's mind when they get to sign their name to something.
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Im not a legal expet by any stretch of he imagination but I would talk to the CFI.
If he confirms what you originally heard, write to him asking for clarification, allowing a reasonable period for his response. You want his comments in writing.
Maybe even talk to a legal person and seek advice first.
If you are unable to find any definitive info re seat loadings from the school, engineering etc, contact piper asking for clarification. Do Not offer them more info than they require. You simply want to know the max weight for each seat in a PA?? And any other pertinent limitations.
At the end of the day the school must have some liability towards your training costs if you are unable to complete it. You, in good faith placed yourself in the hands of this school, they should be aware of any limitations before taking your money, especially before 40 hrs. They cannot now simply wash their hands of you.
If he confirms what you originally heard, write to him asking for clarification, allowing a reasonable period for his response. You want his comments in writing.
Maybe even talk to a legal person and seek advice first.
If you are unable to find any definitive info re seat loadings from the school, engineering etc, contact piper asking for clarification. Do Not offer them more info than they require. You simply want to know the max weight for each seat in a PA?? And any other pertinent limitations.
At the end of the day the school must have some liability towards your training costs if you are unable to complete it. You, in good faith placed yourself in the hands of this school, they should be aware of any limitations before taking your money, especially before 40 hrs. They cannot now simply wash their hands of you.
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The "120 limit" sounds like a 70kg instructor and you at 120 totaling the W&B limit of 190. How much does Your instructor weigh? In reality they probably only just realized or someone "dobbed" to CASA.
For your future flying aspirations and so as to not waste your investment in flying thus far you should consider losing some mass. You may not find your medical as easy next time, you just don't know. At that weight you will struggle to legally fit in many an aircraft and you'll be limiting your enjoyment and thus the enjoyment of your passengers.
For your future flying aspirations and so as to not waste your investment in flying thus far you should consider losing some mass. You may not find your medical as easy next time, you just don't know. At that weight you will struggle to legally fit in many an aircraft and you'll be limiting your enjoyment and thus the enjoyment of your passengers.
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I am only 5 hours in and my medical highlighted obesity as a concern to CASA, so they requested I have my CFI check that I can operate controls and that the W&B check was ok for the aircraft, which is a Warrior as well. Controls were fine as its more my height that gives me issues, and we did the CoG check as requested by CASA.
I am about 140kg and the instructor is 110, so a combined front weight of 250kg. We sat with the CFI and tried a few scenarios based around a fully fueled aircraft. In the end we needed one of the lighter ones in the fleet to give enough room on MTOW, and add 10kg of ballast in the baggage area to bring the CoG back into limits (just). So I can continue flying providing that until I lose some weight I can only fly one particular aircraft that we have a correct calculation on.
At no point was the weight in the seat mentioned by CASA or my CFI.
I would sit down and discuss it with your CFI, as mine was quite helpful in trying to find a solution for me (i.e alternate aircraft, lighter instructor etc).
I am about 140kg and the instructor is 110, so a combined front weight of 250kg. We sat with the CFI and tried a few scenarios based around a fully fueled aircraft. In the end we needed one of the lighter ones in the fleet to give enough room on MTOW, and add 10kg of ballast in the baggage area to bring the CoG back into limits (just). So I can continue flying providing that until I lose some weight I can only fly one particular aircraft that we have a correct calculation on.
At no point was the weight in the seat mentioned by CASA or my CFI.
I would sit down and discuss it with your CFI, as mine was quite helpful in trying to find a solution for me (i.e alternate aircraft, lighter instructor etc).
2 possible issues immediately come to mind.
First is Floor Loading, every aircraft has a maximum floor loading which is typically displayed in the POH and is shown as a lb/square inch or square foot figure. If your not familiar basically if you were to get say 300kg of freight onboard an aircraft thats evenly distribute over a foot of area on the floor then its 300kg/ square foot which may be ok, if you then go that same weight but it only took up half a square foot you would effectively double this figure which the floor may not be able to take, this could be the potential issue. Not sure where you'd find this info for the Warrior, I know its in the Weight and Balance section in a 206 manual and is in there as a Note.
The second possibility is the seat itself. Some aircraft have specific weight limitations on the Seat, the Airvan for instance is something like 140kg (Don't quote me, I don't fly the things!). Therefore this may also be the issue.
First is Floor Loading, every aircraft has a maximum floor loading which is typically displayed in the POH and is shown as a lb/square inch or square foot figure. If your not familiar basically if you were to get say 300kg of freight onboard an aircraft thats evenly distribute over a foot of area on the floor then its 300kg/ square foot which may be ok, if you then go that same weight but it only took up half a square foot you would effectively double this figure which the floor may not be able to take, this could be the potential issue. Not sure where you'd find this info for the Warrior, I know its in the Weight and Balance section in a 206 manual and is in there as a Note.
The second possibility is the seat itself. Some aircraft have specific weight limitations on the Seat, the Airvan for instance is something like 140kg (Don't quote me, I don't fly the things!). Therefore this may also be the issue.
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I recently had a young lady who weighed 130kg come to us for an AFR to be done in a 4 seat Cessna belonging to her family and the limit was 400 lb (from memory?) for the front row. She brought with her a letter sent to her from CASA requiring that a CFI/ATO/FOI had to do a report to say that she could do up the seatbelt, exit the aircraft and have full and free movement of the controls etc and CASA wanted to see the w+b for her AFR returned with the report. She had to lose a few kilos before I could put her with my lightest 60kg instructor for her AFR. Gave her a great incentive as it had to be done before her temporary medical extension ran out and she achieved that weight loss and more. 
Happily she now has her AFR and medical and is getting back into flying professionally as well as getting back into better health.
Thing was she didn't look like she weighed nearly as much as that (and many people do weigh a lot more than they look as if they do so perhaps your instructor thus far was unaware of your weight tho that is not really an excuse - you have to do w+b for the GFPT after all). So the CASA requirement in this case must have been initiated by the medical people and passed on to the licensing people.
Happily she now has her AFR and medical and is getting back into flying professionally as well as getting back into better health.Thing was she didn't look like she weighed nearly as much as that (and many people do weigh a lot more than they look as if they do so perhaps your instructor thus far was unaware of your weight tho that is not really an excuse - you have to do w+b for the GFPT after all). So the CASA requirement in this case must have been initiated by the medical people and passed on to the licensing people.
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Thanks for the info I am trying to loose some "mass" but i have been over weight my whole life so its pretty hard but after reading some replies i dont want to give it up also i dont want to wait 12 months for me to loose some weight as im SOOO close to getting my GFPT.
Got some more info today off the CFI when i questioned him his reply was " the weight limit is set because if you crash the aircraft the seat could buckle under the weight SO I WOULDNT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE" so its not a personal thing its a money thing.
I think i might move schools can anyone recommend a good one i was thinking of schofields-flying-club are they anygood or Clamback & Hennessy.
As for the COG thing i would have the aircraft fully fueled and put some weight in the back so it didnt throw things off.
Thanks for your replys so far.
Got some more info today off the CFI when i questioned him his reply was " the weight limit is set because if you crash the aircraft the seat could buckle under the weight SO I WOULDNT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE" so its not a personal thing its a money thing.
I think i might move schools can anyone recommend a good one i was thinking of schofields-flying-club are they anygood or Clamback & Hennessy.
As for the COG thing i would have the aircraft fully fueled and put some weight in the back so it didnt throw things off.
Thanks for your replys so far.
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Seating design standards cater for statistical populations.
Without digging into specific research for your machine, the seat probably is designed and tested to accommodate a 215 lb body for the design loads. On top of this are various structural factors inherent in manufacturing and design generally.
On the surface of it that suggests that the significantly heavier pilot/passenger represents a gross overload of the seat. However, this occurs every day of the week in all sorts of aircraft, particularly airliners .. I can recall a trip back from Auckland when I was working over there some years ago ... seated between two ample Island folk.
In reality, what it means is that the crash load restraint capability is reduced in proportion to the overload .. ie the seat will break at a lower G-loading than it would for the design occupant weight. Whether you might want that situation to exist is not for me to dictate but introduces a duty of care consideration for commercial operations, I suspect ?
In respect of POH limits, the only restrictions I have ever seen (specifically for a seat) relate to seats loaded with (for example) freight where the maximum amount permitted is limited by the seat design load.
So far as the loading system is concerned, unless there is a specific load limitation imposed in the POH then the loading system can be developed to accommodate an obese person .. noting that it may be necessary to develop a loading system to suit the additional weight but that is only a simple load control matter which your local weight control officer can attend to.
The loading system, of course, will need to address keeping the loaded aircraft within the approved CG envelope throughout flight.
Floor loading is unlikely to be relevant to this Type although I have to caveat that with a note that I don't have the POH to hand. The 206, being a trash hauler, on the other hand .. will certainly have floor loading limits.
The 120kg "limit" suggested for the seat in the OP sounds like a bit of waffly nonsense to me and, I note, also djpil .. who is a very experienced aircraft designer chappie.
Following up on the later comments -
Got some more info today off the CFI when i questioned him his reply was " the weight limit is set because if you crash the aircraft the seat could buckle under the weight SO I WOULDNT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE" so its not a personal thing its a money thing.
... that's just arrant/ignorant nonsense - the seat will suffer damage once the combination of occupant weight and G-load (considering fudge factors involved) exceeds the seat's design capability. I think that one would have to acknowledge that the seat is "compromised" once the occupant weight exceeds the design figure (probably 215 lb).
I think the main problem relates not to the seat but to potential medical problems associated with the degree of obesity ? (I can see djpil saying to me that I should lose a stone or three ... so it affects many/most of us ...)
Without digging into specific research for your machine, the seat probably is designed and tested to accommodate a 215 lb body for the design loads. On top of this are various structural factors inherent in manufacturing and design generally.
On the surface of it that suggests that the significantly heavier pilot/passenger represents a gross overload of the seat. However, this occurs every day of the week in all sorts of aircraft, particularly airliners .. I can recall a trip back from Auckland when I was working over there some years ago ... seated between two ample Island folk.
In reality, what it means is that the crash load restraint capability is reduced in proportion to the overload .. ie the seat will break at a lower G-loading than it would for the design occupant weight. Whether you might want that situation to exist is not for me to dictate but introduces a duty of care consideration for commercial operations, I suspect ?
In respect of POH limits, the only restrictions I have ever seen (specifically for a seat) relate to seats loaded with (for example) freight where the maximum amount permitted is limited by the seat design load.
So far as the loading system is concerned, unless there is a specific load limitation imposed in the POH then the loading system can be developed to accommodate an obese person .. noting that it may be necessary to develop a loading system to suit the additional weight but that is only a simple load control matter which your local weight control officer can attend to.
The loading system, of course, will need to address keeping the loaded aircraft within the approved CG envelope throughout flight.
Floor loading is unlikely to be relevant to this Type although I have to caveat that with a note that I don't have the POH to hand. The 206, being a trash hauler, on the other hand .. will certainly have floor loading limits.
The 120kg "limit" suggested for the seat in the OP sounds like a bit of waffly nonsense to me and, I note, also djpil .. who is a very experienced aircraft designer chappie.
Following up on the later comments -
Got some more info today off the CFI when i questioned him his reply was " the weight limit is set because if you crash the aircraft the seat could buckle under the weight SO I WOULDNT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE" so its not a personal thing its a money thing.
... that's just arrant/ignorant nonsense - the seat will suffer damage once the combination of occupant weight and G-load (considering fudge factors involved) exceeds the seat's design capability. I think that one would have to acknowledge that the seat is "compromised" once the occupant weight exceeds the design figure (probably 215 lb).
I think the main problem relates not to the seat but to potential medical problems associated with the degree of obesity ? (I can see djpil saying to me that I should lose a stone or three ... so it affects many/most of us ...)
It might be an OH&S issue. I certainly in my instructing days would have been concerned with hygiene issues in the often cramped cockpit of light aircraft, sitting next to a larger student. Add a hot day into the mix, combined with performance issues and body odour, and well, you may lose willing instructors to put up with it.
For your own sake, lose some weight, adopt a healthy lifestyle and that PPL will be far sweeter when you get it.
For your own sake, lose some weight, adopt a healthy lifestyle and that PPL will be far sweeter when you get it.
I think that one would have to acknowledge that the seat is "compromised" once the occupant weight exceeds the design figure (probably 215 lb).
I agree with Tullamarine - ignorant nonsense. Could be an interesting discussion with the insurance company but I see no point in persisting. I could make up a little placard for that flying school to put in all its aircraft to satisfy their insurance company - "maximum weight permitted on each seat is 77 kg". Maybe a lower weight to reflect the lower design G loads cf the current standards?
Perhaps better to talk to CFIs of some other flying schools.
Of course, the other advice on personal weight is probably good too however I'm an engineer not a medical type so I won't comment on that except: yes, Tullamarine, we could both do with some lightening.
For info, my own aeroplane is self limiting - with a big person in either seat the stick is unable to achieve full travel.
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The Green Goblin, the straight shooter 
Not all large people smell you know 
Add a hot day into the mix, combined with performance issues and body odour, and well, you may lose willing instructors to put up with it.
