More complex visual approach requirements in Australia?
Just for the sake of context, in Western Europe and the UK it is exceedingly unlikely you will be cleared for a visual approach at a major airport for a host of reasons including noise, traffic density, airspace, separation etc etc
Things must have really changed at EGLL and EGCC since last time I was there, where, when possible, a visual approach on a nice day was common, and just like YSSY, helped keep the flow rate up. Maybe they don't bother offering them to airlines that will not accept them these days.
With pilots under training, I have always characterized the rules for visual approaches as follows:
ICAO: Simplest and least flexible.
Australia: Most complicated, but most flexible in practice.
US/FAA: Somewhere more or less in the middle of the above.
And contrary to the views of a CASA inspector quite recently, there is no legal prohibition on a "Transport Category Aeroplane" (their words, not mine) conducting a visual approach in Australia.
Tootle pip!!
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Contrary to the above, ATC in Australia does not offer visual approaches. It is up to the pilot to first report visual then, if traffic permits, ATC will clear the aircraft for a visual approach.
It's probably worth noting at this point in the discussion, the term "circling area". An aerodrome which has no Instrument Approach, technically has no circling area either, be aware that at such aerodromes descending to circuit height within 5 miles does not necessarily mean terrain clearance, also be aware of the clearway length (distance) with respect to obstacle clear gradients.
Contrary to the above, ATC in Australia does not offer visual approaches. It is up to the pilot to first report visual then, if traffic permits, ATC will clear the aircraft for a visual approach.
“Are you visual yet?” That takes me back to my very first IFR flight, whilst funny now it was very embarrassing at the time, I was on descent to a primary capital when ATC asked me "Flight Conditions" in all my training I had never heard the term. It was followed by a stunned silence then, umm what!, are you visual, oh, yes Visual.
I used to like the night visapps where you'd never know what the MVA you'll get til ya get it.
Contrary to the above, ATC in Australia does not offer visual approaches. It is up to the pilot to first report visual then, if traffic permits, ATC will clear the aircraft for a visual approach.
On the ATIS: "Expect ILS Approach!".
When on Approach: "Report when Visual!".
Bloggs to FO Bloggs: "Tell them to get lost! We're doing the ILS like they said to expect!". Rediculous.
Originally Posted by Leddie
Australia: Most complicated, but most flexible in practice.
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The other day into ORD...."bigplane 123..airport at you 1oclock at 12 miles"
"Field in sight"
"Bigplane 123 cleared visual approach 28C contact tower 12***** "
"Bigjet123 cleared to land number 4..you are following an Aerlingus 330 on an 8 mile final"
"Field in sight"
"Bigplane 123 cleared visual approach 28C contact tower 12***** "
"Bigjet123 cleared to land number 4..you are following an Aerlingus 330 on an 8 mile final"
Hence the term "visual approach", eh?
the point was aimed more at our NGT VFR counterparts, although I have had this conversation with IFR pilots just the same. Think aerodrome, no approach at night never been there before.
the point was aimed more at our NGT VFR counterparts, although I have had this conversation with IFR pilots just the same. Think aerodrome, no approach at night never been there before.
Somebody's mellowing in their old age...
Not at all, just a simple statement of fact, as any of my students in years gone by will tell you, as they have all, without exception, had to thoroughly understand the "rules", including the nuances, in all the countries we operated through.
Like the C402 being delivered to Bush Pilots may years ago, a "simple" visual approach on a clear bright night, with the whole of Cairns in sight, turned out to be deadly.
Tootle pip!!
Haughtney1, ref your #33 ---- So, what's your point?
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Xeptu,
no, it certainly does not...
...and
5nm is not really relevant to your scenario. I think you will find that 3nm is the magic number relevant to both IFR & VFR in certain cases:
AIP ENR1.5
AIP ENR1.10
AIP ENR1.1
be aware that at such aerodromes descending to circuit height within 5 miles does not necessarily mean terrain clearance,
...and
the point was aimed more at our NGT VFR counterparts, although I have had this conversation with IFR pilots just the same. Think aerodrome, no approach at night never been there before.
AIP ENR1.5
4.7 Landing Minima
4.7.1 Aerodromes without approved instrument approach
procedures
IFR Day - visual approach requirements.
IFR Night - VMC from LSALT within 3NM.
4.7.1 Aerodromes without approved instrument approach
procedures
IFR Day - visual approach requirements.
IFR Night - VMC from LSALT within 3NM.
1.4 Non-instrument Procedure Destination
1.4.2 An aircraft operating under the IFR by night having a MTOW not
greater than 5,700KG may be planned to a destination not
served by a radio navigation aid, or not having an approved
instrument approach procedure, subject to the following
requirements:
c. Descent below LSALT for the route sector to be flown must
not be commenced until the aircraft is positively fixed within
3NM of the destination aerodrome and the aerodrome lighting
has been visually identified. Subsequent manoeuvring for
descent and landing must be in VMC and confined within
3NM of the destination aerodrome while operating below the
LSALT.
d. The pilot is responsible for ensuring that he or she is familiar
with all terrain and obstacles surrounding the aerodrome
within the specified circling area of 3NM and that the aircraft is
manoeuvred for landing at a height sufficient to maintain the
obstacle clearance specified for circling in ENR 1.5 para 1.7.6
Note 2.
1.4.2 An aircraft operating under the IFR by night having a MTOW not
greater than 5,700KG may be planned to a destination not
served by a radio navigation aid, or not having an approved
instrument approach procedure, subject to the following
requirements:
c. Descent below LSALT for the route sector to be flown must
not be commenced until the aircraft is positively fixed within
3NM of the destination aerodrome and the aerodrome lighting
has been visually identified. Subsequent manoeuvring for
descent and landing must be in VMC and confined within
3NM of the destination aerodrome while operating below the
LSALT.
d. The pilot is responsible for ensuring that he or she is familiar
with all terrain and obstacles surrounding the aerodrome
within the specified circling area of 3NM and that the aircraft is
manoeuvred for landing at a height sufficient to maintain the
obstacle clearance specified for circling in ENR 1.5 para 1.7.6
Note 2.
2.11.8.4 Tracking Requirements for visual approach. Except when on
a STAR, the pilot must maintain track/heading on the route
progressively authorised by ATC until:
a. by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
b. by night, the aerodrome is in sight and the aircraft is within:
(1) the prescribed circling area for an IFR flight; or
(2) 3NM of the aerodrome for a VFR flight
From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC
for an approach to the nominated runway.
2.11.8.7 Minimum Altitude Requirements. During the conduct of a
visual approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
b. by night:
(2) for a VFR flight:
– maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for
VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is within 3NM of
the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight.
a STAR, the pilot must maintain track/heading on the route
progressively authorised by ATC until:
a. by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
b. by night, the aerodrome is in sight and the aircraft is within:
(1) the prescribed circling area for an IFR flight; or
(2) 3NM of the aerodrome for a VFR flight
From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC
for an approach to the nominated runway.
2.11.8.7 Minimum Altitude Requirements. During the conduct of a
visual approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
b. by night:
(2) for a VFR flight:
– maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for
VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is within 3NM of
the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight.
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Lead merely illustrating that everywhere else worth mentioning is far simpler and more practical than Oz, moreover air circus Oz seem to be evolving in a direction that adds complexity rather than making life easier. Perhaps a reflection on the general regulatory mindset prevalent in many areas inside and outside aviation in Australia.
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If I’m given a V star (LIZZIV for 34 for example, or one of the V arrivals into Adelaide) when we are 200 miles out how is that not being offered a visual approach? Obviously you can’t get cleared the visual until you report visual but you are still being offered it.