Children of the Magenta Line. Applies to GA types too
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Children of the Magenta Line. Applies to GA types too
With the proliferation of glass cockpit EFIS displays and associated autopilots in flying school training aircraft, as well as in most airline types, it is worth re-visiting this fine presentation of the traps of automation. Does the aircraft you fly have a glass cockpit EFIS presentation? If so, then listen to this video presentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10&t=5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10&t=5s
Would pilots of any age nowadays still plan and fly a visual nav using solely map reading and DR outside of training? All pilots (of any age group) I know use GPS or other technology in day to day flying and have done so for a long time.
Perhaps the various training departments and SOP committees of today’s airlines should watch this also.
With SOP’s along the lines of “The highest level of Automation shall be used...” it’s no wonder Pilots are losing their skills.
15 years ago I was flying Teardrop NDB approaches off fixed card ADF’s. Those skills were eroded not by myself, but Airline SOP’s.
With SOP’s along the lines of “The highest level of Automation shall be used...” it’s no wonder Pilots are losing their skills.
15 years ago I was flying Teardrop NDB approaches off fixed card ADF’s. Those skills were eroded not by myself, but Airline SOP’s.
To much reliance on digital technology theses days by VFR pilots using GPS and iPads as a primary means of navigation, which is totally illegal and an act of stupidity.
Heard stories of fresh CPL holders completely getting lost on a check ride when the check pilot/chief pilot turns the GPS off!
Root cause, very bad training!
Attended a very good forum a couple of years ago in Sydney that was put on by CASA and the Children of the Magenta Line was an agenda item. Don’t recall who the presenter was however it may have been the same presenter in the YouTube video. This issue is a major factor in some recent high profile accidents.
If airline SOPs actually let pilots turn all the automatics off and fly on raw data under certain conditions to allow pilots to remain current on the stick and rudder skills, the industry would be a far safer environment.
Heard stories of fresh CPL holders completely getting lost on a check ride when the check pilot/chief pilot turns the GPS off!
Root cause, very bad training!
Attended a very good forum a couple of years ago in Sydney that was put on by CASA and the Children of the Magenta Line was an agenda item. Don’t recall who the presenter was however it may have been the same presenter in the YouTube video. This issue is a major factor in some recent high profile accidents.
If airline SOPs actually let pilots turn all the automatics off and fly on raw data under certain conditions to allow pilots to remain current on the stick and rudder skills, the industry would be a far safer environment.
Last edited by Duck Pilot; 15th Oct 2017 at 04:30. Reason: Added last statement
I (and the school I work for) make students do DR with no GPS or tablet etc in their nav training.
After they move on and get a licence and are on their own I am happy for them to do as they wish so long as they have acquired skills and competency in DR navigation and carry a pencil and a paper chart, as a fall back. The idea of people who can only rely on an ipad or tablet for navigation is not something I am comfortable with.
Not talking about certified instruments but the common tablet/ipad based nav applications used by many PPLs in GA.
In aircraft with certified GPS etc that is another matter, in the bottom end of GA and initial training, I believe paper charts and the ability to estimate distances and bearings and make time estimates etc airborne is a basic survival skill.
All in my opinion. If I was giving a biennual proficiency check as a nav, for a PPL who was navigating solely with an ipad, I would remove the ipad part way through simulating a failure and see what they did and how they coped. Not to be nasty but because I think it is responsible to ensure they could cope if it happened.
Magenta lines and tablet based nav applications are great. But ipads and tablets can let you down.
And if they pulled out their iPhone with fully charged battery and up to date database using the same application, would you then give them the tick of approval? Or would you keep on throwing their backups out the window until they pulled out a crusty old paper chart with coffee stains and rips all over it?
And if they pulled out their iPhone with fully charged battery and up to date database using the same application, would you then give them the tick of approval?
What then?
I find it amusing when friends recount how good their children are who do geocaching. Using a GPS based mapping app does not teach map reading skills.
No matter how many iThingies they have at their disposal, all the gadgets are referencing transmissions from satellites that can be jammed.
What then?
What then?
ie. all the IFR flights out there that haven't planned for an alternate because they expected their dual TSO146a GNS430s to be serviceable at their destination where they expect to conduct an approach in IMC would be in a bit of strife (especially with all the ground based aids recently decommissioned).
By all means use a GPS system of your choice but have the chart out and keep it marked up and cross check occasionally what the GPS is saying is sensible.
Last edited by mikewil; 15th Oct 2017 at 21:12.
Well, with caveats, not according to the regulator. Nowadays, CASA/company approved paperless cockpits are an option. In these cases, the pilot could be diverting to the middle-of-nowhere in the middle of the night and the only paper on board is the Maintenance Release. If the first approved iPad fails, the WAC, IAP, Jepps, ALA directory and manuals are accessed from the approved back up iPad. There is no option, in a paperless cockpit, to plot a line on a chart - that would be like taking a star shot without a sextant.
Don't know what apps you use pithblot, but Ozrunways certainly lets me plot a line on a chart quickly and easily. If the GPS stopped working I'd be more than happy to continue with the App used solely as a chart/map display.
It all depends on your situation of course, I certainly think it is a good idea/essential for instructors to make sure their students understand the fundamentals of using Papercharts as it's still the same fundamentals when using ipads when done properly and safely.
For me personally I can be on one side of the country one day and be sent to the other side the next day, it's bloody hard keeping all the up-to-date charts and maps in a job like that so Ozrunways is an absolute blessing for me.
It all depends on your situation of course, I certainly think it is a good idea/essential for instructors to make sure their students understand the fundamentals of using Papercharts as it's still the same fundamentals when using ipads when done properly and safely.
For me personally I can be on one side of the country one day and be sent to the other side the next day, it's bloody hard keeping all the up-to-date charts and maps in a job like that so Ozrunways is an absolute blessing for me.
Agree with you Ixily, about the benefits of Ozrunways. But you won't be drawing a line on an electronic chart if the iPad battery is flat or the screen fails.
I presumed a chart to be paper, just as I also once presumed a book to be paper. Clearly that's not the case, and my statement would have been clearer had I written; There is no option, in a paperless cockpit, to plot a line on a paperlchart .....
I presumed a chart to be paper, just as I also once presumed a book to be paper. Clearly that's not the case, and my statement would have been clearer had I written; There is no option, in a paperless cockpit, to plot a line on a paperlchart .....
Last edited by pithblot; 16th Oct 2017 at 04:04.
You won't be drawing a line on a paperchart if it's damaged, you ran out of pen, pencil broke, perhaps you lost your ruler? Proper planning and risk mitigation will prevent that from happening, though.
In days gone by people could lose a chart, not have an up-to-date one, damage their chart from rain or other sources, of course you found ways to mitigate that, just like when using an iPad. You keep a portable battery with you, plug it into the cigarette lighter, ensure you charged it fully the night before. This is also why we have backup devices. There are pitfalls with Electronic Charts just like there were pitfalls with Paper Charts, we find ways to mitigate those pitfalls.
In days gone by people could lose a chart, not have an up-to-date one, damage their chart from rain or other sources, of course you found ways to mitigate that, just like when using an iPad. You keep a portable battery with you, plug it into the cigarette lighter, ensure you charged it fully the night before. This is also why we have backup devices. There are pitfalls with Electronic Charts just like there were pitfalls with Paper Charts, we find ways to mitigate those pitfalls.
I am always amused when people trot out the "If you can't do DR, you ain't a real pilot", or the "If you can't get by without GPS, you shouldn't be flying". GPS is probably surpassed only by the internet in terms of the useful impact it has had on the global population.
Yet aviation nav processes and respective attitudes utilise it like we are still in the 1950's. I have 4 independent GPS systems on board my simple little RV-9. The iPad goes flat? Plug the damn thing in, stupid. Won't take a charge? Bring up the VTC on the EFIS MAP page. That won't work because the subscription timed out yesterday? Good thing the old KLN-90 is still coupled to the autopilot, let's say it pops the ECB? Well, let's trot out the trusty phone running RWY and hope we don't get hit by a meteor given the volume of independent failures we've had on this flight.
That last bit it the key. How many independent failures are VFR pilots supposed to deal with, and at what point will aviation actually move into the modern world?
Yet aviation nav processes and respective attitudes utilise it like we are still in the 1950's. I have 4 independent GPS systems on board my simple little RV-9. The iPad goes flat? Plug the damn thing in, stupid. Won't take a charge? Bring up the VTC on the EFIS MAP page. That won't work because the subscription timed out yesterday? Good thing the old KLN-90 is still coupled to the autopilot, let's say it pops the ECB? Well, let's trot out the trusty phone running RWY and hope we don't get hit by a meteor given the volume of independent failures we've had on this flight.
That last bit it the key. How many independent failures are VFR pilots supposed to deal with, and at what point will aviation actually move into the modern world?
Ixixly, do you think I am suggesting we should go back to paper charts?
Does this not sound similar to my original post? Post #12?
My point is that electronic maps and charts have become so reliable (in an approved system) that paper charts, manuals and documents are not even needed as a back up.
Proper planning and risk mitigation......
.....when using an iPad. You keep a portable battery with you, plug it into the cigarette lighter, ensure you charged it fully the night before. This is also why we have backup devices. There are pitfalls with Electronic Charts just like there were pitfalls with Paper Charts, we find ways to mitigate those pitfalls.
.....when using an iPad. You keep a portable battery with you, plug it into the cigarette lighter, ensure you charged it fully the night before. This is also why we have backup devices. There are pitfalls with Electronic Charts just like there were pitfalls with Paper Charts, we find ways to mitigate those pitfalls.
Does this not sound similar to my original post? Post #12?
My point is that electronic maps and charts have become so reliable (in an approved system) that paper charts, manuals and documents are not even needed as a back up.
Last edited by pithblot; 16th Oct 2017 at 03:52.
The philosophy that was drummed into me was "do not ever pass up any opportunity to verify your position". In my opinion doing less than that is rotten airmanship, period, and I don't need x thousand hours to state that anyone who does not use every aid available all the time to cross check position, track and speed is asking for trouble one day.
That means paper chart, pencil and Mk1 eyeball if VFR, it means looking for transits, ASI, magnetic compass, rpm, turn and bank, DG. It means using the available NDB, VOR and GPS as well as the glass map and checking that they all agree with each other all the time.
If you do that, then it becomes extremely difficult to be navigationally "surprised" or incapacitated by subtle system failure.
I have had a total system fritz on a yacht at night, GPS says one thing, fluxgate compass another, magnetic compass different again. Hard wired GPS says this, iPad says that, autopilot doesn't know what to follow and phone says something else - your situational awareness will go to hell very fast.
Pithblot:
......provided you know how to use the backups, unlike the poor sods who went into the South Atlantic. I am not a Luddite but I don't trust machinery totally.
To put it another way "A man with one watch knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure".
That means paper chart, pencil and Mk1 eyeball if VFR, it means looking for transits, ASI, magnetic compass, rpm, turn and bank, DG. It means using the available NDB, VOR and GPS as well as the glass map and checking that they all agree with each other all the time.
If you do that, then it becomes extremely difficult to be navigationally "surprised" or incapacitated by subtle system failure.
I have had a total system fritz on a yacht at night, GPS says one thing, fluxgate compass another, magnetic compass different again. Hard wired GPS says this, iPad says that, autopilot doesn't know what to follow and phone says something else - your situational awareness will go to hell very fast.
Pithblot:
My point is that electronic maps and charts have become so reliable (in an approved system) that paper charts, manuals and documents are not even needed as a back up.
......provided you know how to use the backups, unlike the poor sods who went into the South Atlantic. I am not a Luddite but I don't trust machinery totally.
To put it another way "A man with one watch knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure".
Most comments here miss the point. modern technology is great and in the main extremely reliable, but as Sunfish pointed out the Air France accident Is a prime example of what can happen when one computer fails due to missing imput.
If your flying GA on the eastern states then it's pretty much a no brainer that you cannot get too lost.
But try a flight from Birdsville to Alice Springs and halfway there the GPS goes off line. For a situationally aware pilot, read animal cunning pilot, it's no big deal.
Simply keep the sand dunes at a constant angle to the flight path and you will eventually cross the main highway that leads to Alice.
I for one love the newer GPS systems with the large seperate displays, helps us oldies that need glasses.
If your flying GA on the eastern states then it's pretty much a no brainer that you cannot get too lost.
But try a flight from Birdsville to Alice Springs and halfway there the GPS goes off line. For a situationally aware pilot, read animal cunning pilot, it's no big deal.
Simply keep the sand dunes at a constant angle to the flight path and you will eventually cross the main highway that leads to Alice.
I for one love the newer GPS systems with the large seperate displays, helps us oldies that need glasses.
I fly open cockpit. The iPad EFB (and its backup,of course) is far less likely to blow over the side than the tatty old paper chart.