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Old 11th Sep 2017, 14:48   #1 (permalink)
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Missed Approach - when to climb?

Here's an interesting one I can't seem to find an answer for in the AIP.

ENR 1.10.1

A missed approach must be executed if:

a. during the final segment of an instrument approach, the aircraft is not maintained within the applicable navigation tolerance for the aid in use; or
b. during an instrument approach and below MSA (as specified on the IAL chart) the performance of the radio aid becomes
suspect, or the radio aid fails;

Most plates say "track xxx, at xxxx feet turn left/right" etc. Diagramatically, they show the climb beginning at the MAPt.

In both the above cases, there's a good chance you won't haven't reached the MAPt or DA/MDA. So do you level out and track to the MAPt before starting to climb in the hope of getting visual, or do you start your climb straight away knowing that if your aid has failed and/or you are off track, you may be heading for a nearby obstacle (because you are no longer on the IAP flight path)?

I have seen both suggestions in other literature, but can't find a definitive answer in the regs. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place . . .


Last edited by Virtually There; 12th Sep 2017 at 00:10.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 15:14   #2 (permalink)
 
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So do you level out and track to the MAPt before starting to climb
Good airmanship would suggest you should immediately climb to the published missed approach altitude while maintaining track towards the missed approach point and subsequent missed approach track. Never count on breaking visual.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 15:40   #3 (permalink)
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That would be my interpretation. The regs state a "Missed Approach must be executed . . .". And if you read any IAP plate, it usually says something like "Track, climb" or "Track, at XXXXFT turn here/there".

My understanding is that in executing a Missed Approach under 1.10.1 (a) or (b), you must immediately track and climb as directed by the plate. However, I have been told there is nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits you from levelling out in the hope of breaking visual. The logic is that by levelling out, you are not continuing the approach, but rather conducting the Missed Approach by tracking for the MAPt and then climbing where indicated by the plate (dash line).

I guess this isn't an airmanship argument, but rather "if the regs don't say you can't, you can" type argument. I'm just curious what everyone else's opinion is.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 16:14   #4 (permalink)
 
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Sometimes the initial missed approach alt is below your current alt so you have to carry on down
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 17:03   #5 (permalink)
 
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My understanding is that in executing a Missed Approach under 1.10.1 (a) or (b), you must immediately track and climb as directed by the plate.
Absolutely NOT!

Under (a) You must follow the track down to the MDA level, and then climb as directed. It may be a level segment, it may be a direct climb, but you still drive down to that point.

You can go missed at anytime during final segment, so to go missed early and direct climb, you may have issues with driving into the DEP ac, or ac crossing procedures.

In case (b) the assumption in the regulation is that you were on the flightpath, and after the MAP/MSA, the radio aid fails. (note during an instrument approach). If this is the case, you are outside of the parameters of what is on the plate, with the missed approach criteria.

You cannot level off below the MDA before the MAPt, if that is what you are saying, you are outside the criteria to be able to climb and have obstacle protection. Want to meet the Tower?

Going missed below the MDA/DA is balked, and outside criteria. As the question is open to the level below MDA, best to get directions from ATC rather than the plate and hope.

Last edited by underfire; 11th Sep 2017 at 17:19.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 22:15   #6 (permalink)
 
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Under (a) You must follow the track down to the MDA level, and then climb as directed. It may be a level segment, it may be a direct climb, but you still drive down to that point.
Where the heck are you reading that?

It is plainly stated that you are OUTSIDE the nav tolerance, and are NOT permitted to continue the approach, and definitely not descend to MDA (because you are no longer in the protected area), so pour on the coals and climb out of there, and follow the tracking directions on the plate.

Quote:
In case (b) the assumption in the regulation is that you were on the flightpath, and after the MAP/MSA, the radio aid fails.
Again, where are you seeing that? The aircraft is probably below the 10nm MSA, but not yet reached the MDA or MAP, and the aid fails or becomes suspect. Again, you cannot be sure where you are, and the only place you want to be is NOT where you are. Make Mister Proach.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 22:56   #7 (permalink)
 
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - no wonder there people struggling with IFR and IREX.

(Most of) IFR is quite logical - if you KNOW you are safe, proceed; if you can't be SURE that you're safe, go somewhere safe.

On an approach, the only place that you KNOW is safe, is within tolerance on the approach. So if you're out of tolerance (so god knows what's in front of you now), or if you think the aid might be wrong (god knows where you actually are), you go somewhere safe - UP - NOW.

AIP actually makes it clear, but only in one or two places, CASA drafting . Go up now, continue tracking to the MAPt, then do the rest of missed approach.

Underfire
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Under (a) You must follow the track down to the MDA level, and then climb as directed. It may be a level segment, it may be a direct climb, but you still drive down to that point
No way - don't know what you guys do special over there, but if you do that here, you won't be working for me.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 23:01   #8 (permalink)
 
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Just occasionally you come across a thread on PPRuNe that you can't believe is an actual discussion and well.. here we are.
Out of tolerance / navaid dies you climb and climb now. As above if you can't guarantee you are terrain safe you get somewhere safe and you do it now.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 23:21   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Virtually There View Post
In both the above cases, there's a good chance you won't haven't reached the MAPt or DA/MDA.
I guess the question is, what does "execute a Missed Approach" prior to the MAPt mean in terms of the regs? We know it means immediately track to the MAPt and carry out the published MA.

But does it also mean immediately begin your climb prior to the MAPt?

My instincts would tell me if I was no longer offered the protection of the steps along the IAP flight path, it would be a good idea to start climbing

The reason I ask is because you might be surprised how others I've spoken to have interpreted the regs.

Last edited by Virtually There; 12th Sep 2017 at 00:10.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 23:35   #10 (permalink)
 
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If you are below MSA then yes you get climbing now. At or above MSA I can see people making the argument why they may start tracking and then initiate a climb but anything else is just asking for trouble. Just think about it in the sense of if you are below MSA and outwith the confines of the safe guarded area of an approach what is protecting you from finding a very hard cumulus-granite cloud? If you have any sense of self preservation you get climbing.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 23:56   #11 (permalink)


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What's with the large font?

As others have wisely stated, the correct (and only correct) answer is abandon the approach and climb immediately.

Let me simplify it with you with this question:

You are on approach in IMC and you don't have a clue where you are. Yes, go around. But if you don't know where you are, then how the hell are you going to track to the missed approach point? Guess where it is? Descend down to DH/MDA and then perform a go around? Maybe CFIT?

So there you have it, as soon as you're not sure, TOGA and climb! Don't forget power then pitch!
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 00:00   #12 (permalink)
 
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Climb to the Missed Approach Altitude ASAP! You no longer "know here you are" with respect to the procedure tracking requirements, so get the hell outta there.

Underfire appears to be on something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underfire
You can go missed at anytime during final segment, so to go missed early and direct climb, you may have issues with driving into the DEP ac, or ac crossing procedures.
Do you really think ATC would clear an aircraft for an approach and not consider that said aeroplane might give the approach away and climb to the Missed Approach Altitude at any point?

Give us an example of where an aeroplane doing a missed approach could conflict with a departing aircraft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underfire
You cannot level off below the MDA before the MAPt, if that is what you are saying
Quite obviously that is not what he is saying.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 00:00   #13 (permalink)
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Simplicity and don't hit the hard bits which might be to either side of the prescribed tracking details .. Centaurus has been missing the hard bits for a very long time ... I would heed his counsel. Likewise Ascend Charlie and a couple of other posters.

My understanding is that in executing a Missed Approach under 1.10.1 (a) or (b), you must immediately track and climb as directed by the plate.

.. providing you are intending to maintain the prescribed plate tracking throughout.

However, I have been told there is nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits you from levelling out in the hope of breaking visual

The OP's question relates to a situation where the approach has been screwed up for one reason or another .. unless you can positively maintain the prescribed track you are entertaining a CFIT note in the daily papers. Some approaches wend their way amongst rocky bits ... the question poses the problem that you have lost your way.

"if the regs don't say you can't, you can"

The Regs prescribe minimum standards ... commonsense ought to require something better, one thinks ?

Sometimes the initial missed approach alt is below your current alt so you have to carry on down


You don't have an instrument rating, do you ? Unless you are on the prescribed track, etc., you are not permitted to "carry on down". I do hope that your comment was tongue in cheek

You can go missed at anytime during final segment, so to go missed early and direct climb, you may have issues with driving into the DEP ac, or ac crossing procedures.

Below MSA you must stay on the prescribed track (think about it .. rocky bits to the sides ?) while climbing. Unless you know where you are, you follow the missed right there and then ... climb while tracking to the MAPt and then the prescribed missed approach tracking details.

Separation is a normal management thing so the radio is your friend.

You can give the approach away at any time. For instance, during my initial GA rating test I screwed up the DME letdown and gave it away early, climbed back up and did it right second time around. The DCA examiner (who was a bit of a pedantic chap, if rather affable) wasn't in the least bit concerned. I suspect that, had I tried to salvage it first time around, we might have been going back for a debrief and some more training.

Main thing is .. if you are below the prescribed safe altitudes, one must treat it as a critical terrain avoidance issue.

In case (b) the assumption in the regulation is that you were on the flightpath, and after the MAP/MSA, the radio aid fails

Very well behaved radios in your machine, I would venture.

Reminds me of a tale from one of the initial Ansett DC9 endorsement chaps in the States. The IP pulled an engine on the first takeoff ... when my colleague raised a concern later about this .. the IP observed .. "Well, son, we don't know just when the engine is going to fail over here .."

So what do you suggest you might do if the aid has the temerity to fail during the initial parts of the approach ?

You cannot level off below the MDA before the MAPt, if that is what you are saying, you are outside the criteria to be able to climb and have obstacle protection

So long as you are maintaining the prescribed track and observing minimum altitudes, there is no problem with flying level or climbing ... the obstacle protection is lateral.

best to get directions from ATC rather than the plate and hope

Hope should be the province of religious folk, not pilots. Knowing is better than hoping. What use is ATC unless they have radar data to assist in terrain separation ?

if you KNOW you are safe, proceed; if you can't be SURE that you're safe, go somewhere safe.

Now, that's not a bad attitude, methinks.

Just occasionally you come across a thread on PPRuNe that you can't believe is an actual discussion and well.. here we are.

I'd go along with that ..

The reason I ask is because you might be surprised how others I've spoken to have interpreted the regs.

The Regs are all well and good .. but sound risk management, if that suggests something more conservative ... is the way to go. Anyway, the only folk who are able to interpret the Regs are the legal eagles. The rest of us use them as a starting point for sensible risk management decision making.

You are on approach in IMC and you don't have a clue where you are. Yes, go around. But if you don't know where you are, then how the hell are you going to track to the missed approach point?

Some places overseas, due to surrounding mountains, you can't do your own thing .. you have to do whatever you can to maximise the probability that you are remaining within the protected areas .. called DR as I recall. Certainly, we are rather fortunate in Oz with terrain .. but, as more than a few over the years have proved ... treat the risks with abandon and the outcome may not be pretty.

There are very few absolute guarantees in flying .. but heaps of risk management decision making ie commonsense.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 00:15   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by A320ECAM View Post
What's with the large font?
Sorry, browser settings didn't show it. Fixed now, hopefully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A320ECAM
You are on approach in IMC and you don't have a clue where you are. Yes, go around. But if you don't know where you are, then how the hell are you going to track to the missed approach point? Guess where it is?
Well yes. How do you track to a VOR if your radio nav aid fails and you only have one? You could try the GPS, I guess, but are you going to start mucking around with it at such a critical time (assuming it wasn't already tuned to the VOR in this example)?
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 00:28   #15 (permalink)
 
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What's with the large font?
Not a bad idea, don't need my glasses...
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 01:36   #16 (permalink)
 
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If some of those posting on PPRuNe actually get a job in the airlines & then get a command, I think it will be time to start catching the train! Unbelievable!
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 05:16   #17 (permalink)
 
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You must follow the track down to the MDA level
I'm assuming that most are getting concerned about this advice - I'm hoping that we are misinterpreting this advice as it's not completely clear (to me!) what he is saying - is underfire suggesting to continue descent?
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 09:14   #18 (permalink)
 
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If someone needs a regulatory reference to tell them to climb if the navaid is dodgy or they're off track, they should hand their licence back in.

As the OP has requested a reference though, try looking at CAR 178. Amazing how many IFR pilots are not aware of this regulation, or cannot apply it correctly.

If you're not flying in accordance with an IAL (that requires flying within specified tolerances using serviceable navaid), and none of the other circumstances in 178(4) apply, then you must fly not below a published or calculated LSALT - which means climb immediately.

In addition, there are some plates like YSRI RWY 28 ILS that have notes like:

Quote:
IF MISSED APCH CONDUCTED PRIOR TO MM, CLIMB NOT ABV 2500FT UNTIL MM/0.2 DME RIC
This indicates they are expecting you to climb if you initiate missed approach before the missed approach point, but just don't want you to go all the way to 3,300 until after the missed approach point, presumably due overlying airspace. But the point is they know you'll climb straight away.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 09:16   #19 (permalink)
 
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jesus wept.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 09:58   #20 (permalink)
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Maybe I need to qualify what is being said: that if there are no known obstacles (you're out bush etc), there is nothing in the regs to prevent the option of leveling out while tracking to the MAPt (presumably dead reckoning, as your radio aid/navaid has failed, or you're out of tolerance to the point you're not quite sure where you are) in the hope of breaking visual. Not a blanket action in any approach, but rather a legal option based on regulatory ambiguity and circumstance.

Take CAR 178 for example:

(4)An aircraft may be flown along a route segment at a height less than the height that is applicable under subregulation (1) or (2):
(b) (ii) in accordance with any instructions published in AIP; or

(c) during an authorised instrument departure procedure or authorised instrument approach procedure

A missed approach is an authorised instrument approach procedure. And I agree, some plates do explicitly direct you to climb before the MAPt or other point. But most just say "Track, climb, turn" etc.

Common sense may tell you to climb immediately, but the regs don't. As far as I can tell. Which is the reason for this thread.
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