King Air down at Essendon?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: United States
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"Coming to the Nuisance"
Australia is hardly alone in having airports begin as largely rural, but then area becomes heavily developed with collusion of politicians and land developer cronies.
Followed by complaints the airport is too dangerous or noisy. Very common in US (and no doubt many other countries).
Others will move to a rural farming area (or build housing subdivisions out there). Cheap land, 'rural atmosphere', etc.
Then they complain about rural odors, noises, flies or whatever, and ask a court or local gov't to close the 'offending' facility (or force it to undertake costly measures to soundproof or odorproof or whatever).
The legal doctrine (at least in US) is called "coming to the nuisance."
Followed by complaints the airport is too dangerous or noisy. Very common in US (and no doubt many other countries).
Others will move to a rural farming area (or build housing subdivisions out there). Cheap land, 'rural atmosphere', etc.
Then they complain about rural odors, noises, flies or whatever, and ask a court or local gov't to close the 'offending' facility (or force it to undertake costly measures to soundproof or odorproof or whatever).
The legal doctrine (at least in US) is called "coming to the nuisance."
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Gee - thanks LB; way to welcome a newbie. We all have to post a first comment someday. I've been part of this industry for over 50 years so I've got some clout. No facts were presented - just observations. I'm using the same info you are - what we've seen reported, and no-one has mentioned the prop before so I've thrown that in the mix. Let's see a responsible reply to what I've raised.
People here have lost a mate, someone's lost a Dad, the accident scene has barely been inspected. We all want answers, but I'm sure the ATSB is capable of doing their job... even if it takes them two years. But hey no worries, welcome to PPRUNE, feel free to be offended that someone disagreed with your first post.
Yes, the prophesy suggesting this will be a heavily litigated accident, accords with my projections. The families will sue ATSB/CASA who have fluffed around with their investigations that "should" have led to this fella being grounded (note - I'm note saying this is correct, just a likely pursuit of the litigants, and with the poor bloke sadly departed, there'll be no defence for him). There will be ramifications for the charter industry (though they'll take ages to be implemented) and will have no actual outcome on safety and will be a further burden on us all.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Litigation is more likely to be directed towards the over development of the land immediately adjacent to RWY 17. The B200 King Air aircraft became disabled very close to rotation, or just after lift-off. Arguably, if the DFO complex was not located within the airport boundary, less than 300m from the centre-line of RWY 17, the pilot would have had the option to recover to the ground within the confines of the airport!..
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Thanks Kalavo for the reasonable response; I'm not offended but did expect something like your post rather than a put down. Yes, I've lost plenty of associates to what we all love, seen some of them do it and was there when the AA King Air hit the sea wall. I'm theorizing from zero facts, and the TV prop clip was a few seconds to assess. I'm just as perplexed as you guys as to how this happened and saddened for the families. I doubt I'll post anything more on the subject and wait for real information to leak out.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Yep - at least you realize yourself that you are no expert. A propeller attached to a PT6 engine REQUIRE oil pressure to be driven OUT of the feathered position. If the supply of oil under pressure is removed for any reason (no engine attached in the picture above is reason enough), it would be spring loaded back to the feathered position. Now - whether the engine supplied power at the point of impact is a different discussion, and one that the ATSB lab will investigate. A cursory glance at the blade in the 3 o'clock position in the top picture above, does seem to indicate that the engine supplied positive torque (power) at the time of impact, but we should leave this to the investigators to determine. We also have no indication whether the propeller in the picture is the left or right, (nor do we at this stage have positive confirmation whether the left / right . both / neither engine failed) so the entire discussion is a bit futile. Not that this has stopped the armchair experts in the past....
Join Date: Dec 2013
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I won't add my novice perspective to the incident itself.
I did find it interesting that the ATSB labelled the type of operation as "Private". I expected to see "Charter". Any thoughts on this? Likely an ATSB error or is there something I'm unaware of in the regs allowing paying customers (an assumption on my part) on a private flight?
I did find it interesting that the ATSB labelled the type of operation as "Private". I expected to see "Charter". Any thoughts on this? Likely an ATSB error or is there something I'm unaware of in the regs allowing paying customers (an assumption on my part) on a private flight?
Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
An interactive map from the Twitterverse showing the difference between 1966 and 2017 layout of Essendon with a sample below. This was taken off the first edition of Melways and so road/runway alignment may not have been as correct back then.
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
It's an easy thing to have a go at him about - all too easy sitting in front of your computer.
What is it about airports that attract buildings and homes at the end of runways, and does someone know if the left engine is the critical one on this a/c. Thanks.
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Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
At this point who is to say that he didn't perform every other action perfectly as well, therefore the radio call had no impact positive or negative on the outcome.
Greg Hood of the ATSB says the initial report will be released within 28 days. The initial report will refer to a Mayday call without elaborating on the nature of the problem. The media briefing this morning referred to some interesting facets discovered in the wreckage and records of the aircraft.
What control locks are on the B200. How many cycles/hours did Max have on the B200 ?
What control locks are on the B200. How many cycles/hours did Max have on the B200 ?
B772, a proper set of control locks for the B200 is a U (or V) shaped thing that goes around the engine controls, open end slides on from right to left. This is connected typically via lightweight chain to a pin that goes through the control column up against the dash, preventing aileron and elevator movement. This pin is also connected, typically via chain, to another pin for the rudder lock in the floor, which is pretty much just a little hole in the floor covered by a spring-closed flap cover, between your heels if you sat normally (feet off the controls).
If the rudder lock pin is in you won't be able to steer the nose wheel. If the pin isn't inserted correctly/the whole way (ie just dropped into the hole without the pedals central for it to engage) it will more often than not drop into the locking position when the pedals are moved and get into the central position.
Not sure how long this link will work, but here's a pic for you. Short pin control lock, longer pin at the end of the chain is for rudder.
Beechcraft King Air Engine Control Lock PN 50-590122-17 | eBay
If the rudder lock pin is in you won't be able to steer the nose wheel. If the pin isn't inserted correctly/the whole way (ie just dropped into the hole without the pedals central for it to engage) it will more often than not drop into the locking position when the pedals are moved and get into the central position.
Not sure how long this link will work, but here's a pic for you. Short pin control lock, longer pin at the end of the chain is for rudder.
Beechcraft King Air Engine Control Lock PN 50-590122-17 | eBay