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King Air down at Essendon?

Old 21st Feb 2017, 22:35
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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"Coming to the Nuisance"

Australia is hardly alone in having airports begin as largely rural, but then area becomes heavily developed with collusion of politicians and land developer cronies.

Followed by complaints the airport is too dangerous or noisy. Very common in US (and no doubt many other countries).

Others will move to a rural farming area (or build housing subdivisions out there). Cheap land, 'rural atmosphere', etc.

Then they complain about rural odors, noises, flies or whatever, and ask a court or local gov't to close the 'offending' facility (or force it to undertake costly measures to soundproof or odorproof or whatever).

The legal doctrine (at least in US) is called "coming to the nuisance."
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 22:42
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Choccy Lab
Gee - thanks LB; way to welcome a newbie. We all have to post a first comment someday. I've been part of this industry for over 50 years so I've got some clout. No facts were presented - just observations. I'm using the same info you are - what we've seen reported, and no-one has mentioned the prop before so I've thrown that in the mix. Let's see a responsible reply to what I've raised.
If you've really been in the industry for 50 years, then I'm guessing you've lost a mate or ten in plane crashes. I certainly have. If you had any time on a Kingair time you might know that they're an absolute pig on one at low speed, that 5.29% on 1563m sounds like a walk in the park, because **** 1000m is easy ...until you lose one and those numbers look marginal at best. That putting the prop in to feather can take almost the full shutdown time for it to actually reach that position. That most single pilot drivers are use to multitasking and prioritising.... if the gear is coming up and autofeather has kicked in, below 400' there's nothing to do but nail the **** out of the attitude, most guys are able to do that with their finger on the PTT and Mayday, Rego, Catastrophic Engine Failure, Standby for details isn't that hard to get out.

People here have lost a mate, someone's lost a Dad, the accident scene has barely been inspected. We all want answers, but I'm sure the ATSB is capable of doing their job... even if it takes them two years. But hey no worries, welcome to PPRUNE, feel free to be offended that someone disagreed with your first post.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 22:53
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, the prophesy suggesting this will be a heavily litigated accident, accords with my projections. The families will sue ATSB/CASA who have fluffed around with their investigations that "should" have led to this fella being grounded (note - I'm note saying this is correct, just a likely pursuit of the litigants, and with the poor bloke sadly departed, there'll be no defence for him). There will be ramifications for the charter industry (though they'll take ages to be implemented) and will have no actual outcome on safety and will be a further burden on us all.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:10
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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I'm no expert but that prop to me looks feathered.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:17
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Yes, I thought the same when I saw it on the news last night.

Steve
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:22
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Litigation is more likely to be directed towards the over development of the land immediately adjacent to RWY 17. The B200 King Air aircraft became disabled very close to rotation, or just after lift-off. Arguably, if the DFO complex was not located within the airport boundary, less than 300m from the centre-line of RWY 17, the pilot would have had the option to recover to the ground within the confines of the airport!..
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:44
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Thanks Kalavo for the reasonable response; I'm not offended but did expect something like your post rather than a put down. Yes, I've lost plenty of associates to what we all love, seen some of them do it and was there when the AA King Air hit the sea wall. I'm theorizing from zero facts, and the TV prop clip was a few seconds to assess. I'm just as perplexed as you guys as to how this happened and saddened for the families. I doubt I'll post anything more on the subject and wait for real information to leak out.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:51
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Is there any discernible indication from those images that the prop was under power on impact?
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:55
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by planeloader
I'm no expert but that prop to me looks feathered.
Yep - at least you realize yourself that you are no expert. A propeller attached to a PT6 engine REQUIRE oil pressure to be driven OUT of the feathered position. If the supply of oil under pressure is removed for any reason (no engine attached in the picture above is reason enough), it would be spring loaded back to the feathered position. Now - whether the engine supplied power at the point of impact is a different discussion, and one that the ATSB lab will investigate. A cursory glance at the blade in the 3 o'clock position in the top picture above, does seem to indicate that the engine supplied positive torque (power) at the time of impact, but we should leave this to the investigators to determine. We also have no indication whether the propeller in the picture is the left or right, (nor do we at this stage have positive confirmation whether the left / right . both / neither engine failed) so the entire discussion is a bit futile. Not that this has stopped the armchair experts in the past....
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:57
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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I won't add my novice perspective to the incident itself.

I did find it interesting that the ATSB labelled the type of operation as "Private". I expected to see "Charter". Any thoughts on this? Likely an ATSB error or is there something I'm unaware of in the regs allowing paying customers (an assumption on my part) on a private flight?
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 23:59
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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control surface failure?
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:07
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:15
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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An interactive map from the Twitterverse showing the difference between 1966 and 2017 layout of Essendon with a sample below. This was taken off the first edition of Melways and so road/runway alignment may not have been as correct back then.

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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:17
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Car RAMROD

Hammerstan, not sure what your getting at but some VERY basic sums you'd be under MTOW. There's not much point me putting made up figures here as it serves no purpose.
As for if they were all sitting on the left, yeah nah, not an issue.
Appreciated
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:28
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
Yeah, we all know the theory of ANC. I would cut the bloke some slack - maybe, just maybe in the heat of what must have been a bit of a tricky situation (putting it mildly), when things weren't going right, the poor fella - perhaps aware of their impending doom, broke the rules of ANC and just pressed the button and said the words - in the vain hope, with nothing left to try, that it might do something for them.
It's an easy thing to have a go at him about - all too easy sitting in front of your computer.
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:43
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Starboard engine still attached to wing here before being consumed by fire. It is visible later when the fire brigade is there, but has slumped somewhat.




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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:44
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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What is it about airports that attract buildings and homes at the end of runways, and does someone know if the left engine is the critical one on this a/c. Thanks.
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:44
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if time would really permit a mayday call shortly after takeoff with an
engine failure on a twin???
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
This baffles me if reports are correct???
And they are probably not...
It's not unreasonable to think that this is the most stressful position you could ever be put under (not just your own life under threat but that of your pax), so it's possible that some actions may have occurred out of order or concurrently.

At this point who is to say that he didn't perform every other action perfectly as well, therefore the radio call had no impact positive or negative on the outcome.
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 00:44
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Greg Hood of the ATSB says the initial report will be released within 28 days. The initial report will refer to a Mayday call without elaborating on the nature of the problem. The media briefing this morning referred to some interesting facets discovered in the wreckage and records of the aircraft.

What control locks are on the B200. How many cycles/hours did Max have on the B200 ?
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 01:02
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B772, a proper set of control locks for the B200 is a U (or V) shaped thing that goes around the engine controls, open end slides on from right to left. This is connected typically via lightweight chain to a pin that goes through the control column up against the dash, preventing aileron and elevator movement. This pin is also connected, typically via chain, to another pin for the rudder lock in the floor, which is pretty much just a little hole in the floor covered by a spring-closed flap cover, between your heels if you sat normally (feet off the controls).

If the rudder lock pin is in you won't be able to steer the nose wheel. If the pin isn't inserted correctly/the whole way (ie just dropped into the hole without the pedals central for it to engage) it will more often than not drop into the locking position when the pedals are moved and get into the central position.

Not sure how long this link will work, but here's a pic for you. Short pin control lock, longer pin at the end of the chain is for rudder.
Beechcraft King Air Engine Control Lock PN 50-590122-17 | eBay
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