Earth calling Air BP: Radio Check
Thread Starter
Earth calling Air BP: Radio Check
I suspect others may find themselves in, or have already been thrown into, a frustrating situation that I'm guessing has been caused by BP allowing its bright-eyed bean-counters to implement an idea that's good in theory but disconnected with practical reality.
The story so far...
Aerorefuellers in Albury has for some time been providing the service of arranging for the issue of various brand Carnet cards for aircraft owners. People could make a single application to Aerorefuellers and Aerorefuellers obtained and passed on Air BP, Mobil, Shell and Aerorefuellers' own Carnet cards. I've been using these cards for years, and Aerorefuellers issues one invoice and you make one payment per month, irrespective of the mix of brands of fuel you purchase. Aerorefuellers pays the individual fuel companies. (And let me record, publicly, my thanks for Aerorefuellers' service. I should also declare that I have no direct or indirect pecuniary interest in Aerorefuellers.)
Then Shell bailed out of issuing Carnet cards for all the 'little-end-of-town' transactions. However, that isn't a problem operationally, because Shell bowsers now accept normal credit cards. (Thank you Shell for a practical solution.)
Then Aerorefuellers recently wrote to its customers to say that Air BP was no longer prepared to issue Carnet cards through Aerorefuellers, and owners now have to apply direct to Air BP.
Application submitted accordingly.
Letter received from BP this week: Please arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in favour of Air BP.
After I stopped laughing, I called the number specified in the letter, in response to the invitation: "please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned". There was no signature, but rather the typed words "Credit Services". I guessed that that was not a person's name, unless s/he was fortuitously christened with a very unusual name that matched his/her eventual vocation. The usual telephone menus, confused telephonist and music on hold for protracted periods ensued, but I was eventually put through to an earnest youngster whom I assume works in BP's "Credit Services".
The youngster provided a very accurate explanation of how credit assessments are done and why a bank guarantee might be required. I explained that I knew all of that, and that I guessed the family company that owns the aircraft and in whose name the application was made in my case has no credit history or rating, because it's never borrowed money. All of its bills have been paid with its own money.
Yep. That would be it. A company that only pays with its own cash would typically be required to provide a bank guarantee.
I asked: You do realise that there has been an Air BP Carnet card issued to the company for the aircraft for years, and that the bills for that card have always been paid, don't you?
Answer: Yes, but Aerorefuellers have been paying BP's bill, not your company.
Touché.
Riposte?
Me: So you think Aeroefuellers would simply keep paying BP's bills for fuel purchased on that card, year after year, if Aerorefuellers' bills to my company weren't being paid? Maybe Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the card if the company hadn't been paying reliably?
Youngster: Errrrmmm.
I asked: Do you really think that I'm going to arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in BP's favour, to get a card to buy a few thousand dollars worth of BP fuel each year? Do you understand the implications for all the people in similar circumstances?
You can guess the answer: That's the requirement.
I felt like suggesting that BP should require mortgages of real property as well, to hedge the risk of the guarantor bank failing. However, I restrained myself because there was a risk of the youngster getting a bright idea.
I also asked, though I also said I anticipated the answer would be "don't know": Do you know if BP bowsers will be modified to take normal credit cards?
The answer was as anticipated.
**Big sigh**
There is nothing wrong with BP confirming the creditworthiness of the persons to whom BP issues Carnet cards. It's just ordinary, prudent business risk mitigation. But in this case there was a very simple and practical way to achieve that outcome in respect of holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers: Just ask the holders for consent to Aerorefuellers disclosing the details of its transactions with the holders. Or BP could just make the reasonable assumption that the holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers had been paying their bills, otherwise Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the cards.
Or BP could simply ditch Carnet cards for the little-end-of-town and instal credit card payment facilities on its bowsers. It is evidently technically and commercially possible and practical.
I have compiled a list of aerodromes that my friends and I often visit where the only fuel bowsers are BP's, in anticipation of not going there any more. I wonder whether BP has any insight into what effect this could have on the local economy of those places if lots of others do the same thing. Would BP would even care?
For instance, I will miss the relaxing lunches in that nice cafe run by the nice ladies in the Broken Hill terminal, and I anticipate they will miss our business. I could pay Ross, the local refueller, by credit card to fill the aircraft, but I'm not prepared to pay the 20c per litre surcharge for the privilege. A nostalgic wave as we overly will be the more likely choice, because my home base to YLEC is a comfortable hop, with a 24/7 credit card bowser at both ends (though it would be nice to have DF back at YLEC!). Or maybe this is just part of the death throes of traditional GA and I'm a nobody at the margins. *shrug*
Here's hoping that BP bowsers will be modified to accept normal credit cards. However, given that BP's decisions so far seem to me to be disconnected from practical reality, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Radio Check Air BP: Please contact planet Earth.
The story so far...
Aerorefuellers in Albury has for some time been providing the service of arranging for the issue of various brand Carnet cards for aircraft owners. People could make a single application to Aerorefuellers and Aerorefuellers obtained and passed on Air BP, Mobil, Shell and Aerorefuellers' own Carnet cards. I've been using these cards for years, and Aerorefuellers issues one invoice and you make one payment per month, irrespective of the mix of brands of fuel you purchase. Aerorefuellers pays the individual fuel companies. (And let me record, publicly, my thanks for Aerorefuellers' service. I should also declare that I have no direct or indirect pecuniary interest in Aerorefuellers.)
Then Shell bailed out of issuing Carnet cards for all the 'little-end-of-town' transactions. However, that isn't a problem operationally, because Shell bowsers now accept normal credit cards. (Thank you Shell for a practical solution.)
Then Aerorefuellers recently wrote to its customers to say that Air BP was no longer prepared to issue Carnet cards through Aerorefuellers, and owners now have to apply direct to Air BP.
Application submitted accordingly.
Letter received from BP this week: Please arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in favour of Air BP.
After I stopped laughing, I called the number specified in the letter, in response to the invitation: "please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned". There was no signature, but rather the typed words "Credit Services". I guessed that that was not a person's name, unless s/he was fortuitously christened with a very unusual name that matched his/her eventual vocation. The usual telephone menus, confused telephonist and music on hold for protracted periods ensued, but I was eventually put through to an earnest youngster whom I assume works in BP's "Credit Services".
The youngster provided a very accurate explanation of how credit assessments are done and why a bank guarantee might be required. I explained that I knew all of that, and that I guessed the family company that owns the aircraft and in whose name the application was made in my case has no credit history or rating, because it's never borrowed money. All of its bills have been paid with its own money.
Yep. That would be it. A company that only pays with its own cash would typically be required to provide a bank guarantee.
I asked: You do realise that there has been an Air BP Carnet card issued to the company for the aircraft for years, and that the bills for that card have always been paid, don't you?
Answer: Yes, but Aerorefuellers have been paying BP's bill, not your company.
Touché.
Riposte?
Me: So you think Aeroefuellers would simply keep paying BP's bills for fuel purchased on that card, year after year, if Aerorefuellers' bills to my company weren't being paid? Maybe Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the card if the company hadn't been paying reliably?
Youngster: Errrrmmm.
I asked: Do you really think that I'm going to arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in BP's favour, to get a card to buy a few thousand dollars worth of BP fuel each year? Do you understand the implications for all the people in similar circumstances?
You can guess the answer: That's the requirement.
I felt like suggesting that BP should require mortgages of real property as well, to hedge the risk of the guarantor bank failing. However, I restrained myself because there was a risk of the youngster getting a bright idea.
I also asked, though I also said I anticipated the answer would be "don't know": Do you know if BP bowsers will be modified to take normal credit cards?
The answer was as anticipated.
**Big sigh**
There is nothing wrong with BP confirming the creditworthiness of the persons to whom BP issues Carnet cards. It's just ordinary, prudent business risk mitigation. But in this case there was a very simple and practical way to achieve that outcome in respect of holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers: Just ask the holders for consent to Aerorefuellers disclosing the details of its transactions with the holders. Or BP could just make the reasonable assumption that the holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers had been paying their bills, otherwise Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the cards.
Or BP could simply ditch Carnet cards for the little-end-of-town and instal credit card payment facilities on its bowsers. It is evidently technically and commercially possible and practical.
I have compiled a list of aerodromes that my friends and I often visit where the only fuel bowsers are BP's, in anticipation of not going there any more. I wonder whether BP has any insight into what effect this could have on the local economy of those places if lots of others do the same thing. Would BP would even care?
For instance, I will miss the relaxing lunches in that nice cafe run by the nice ladies in the Broken Hill terminal, and I anticipate they will miss our business. I could pay Ross, the local refueller, by credit card to fill the aircraft, but I'm not prepared to pay the 20c per litre surcharge for the privilege. A nostalgic wave as we overly will be the more likely choice, because my home base to YLEC is a comfortable hop, with a 24/7 credit card bowser at both ends (though it would be nice to have DF back at YLEC!). Or maybe this is just part of the death throes of traditional GA and I'm a nobody at the margins. *shrug*
Here's hoping that BP bowsers will be modified to accept normal credit cards. However, given that BP's decisions so far seem to me to be disconnected from practical reality, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Radio Check Air BP: Please contact planet Earth.
Thread Starter
I haven't purchased fuel at Canberra for years, at least not in quantities more than topping off. (You probably meant "gouging"?)
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Air BP are actually ok to deal with, but they are really tight with credit management. Guess with the history of GA business failures it's probably good business sense.
Looked at my credit history file recently and saw that Air BP have been querying my credit history every month for about eight years. Looking for problems I guess, although I've never seen this done before and it must cost them a fortune.
Once years ago they asked for a personal guarantee from me. I just phoned up and had a whinge, they then said it's ok and don't worry.
Looked at my credit history file recently and saw that Air BP have been querying my credit history every month for about eight years. Looking for problems I guess, although I've never seen this done before and it must cost them a fortune.
Once years ago they asked for a personal guarantee from me. I just phoned up and had a whinge, they then said it's ok and don't worry.
I have a Tysons card (monthly credit account) for Mobil and BP. It works well, they are happy to give you credit and the higher spend you write on the initial application, the better. I've had one for well over 10 years and never had an issue with them. Thumbs up for Tysons (Essendon and Moorabbin, but works Aus wide of course).
Thread Starter
There is no technical or practical impediment to fitting standard credit/debit card technology to all bowsers.
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To fit a credit card system to a bowser will cost +$30,000 and require a internet/phone link at a monthly cost.
Also the surcharge will need to be passed on @.5-3%.
Expect to replace bowser and card reader every 10 years at most.
Also the surcharge will need to be passed on @.5-3%.
Expect to replace bowser and card reader every 10 years at most.
Thread Starter
Oh no!
And your point is (even if those numbers are correct)?
And your point is (even if those numbers are correct)?
Clinton
If you only use a few thousand dollars of BP fuel each year deposit say $1,000 with BP. At the end of each month pay them for fuel used during the month. You may even get a discount or velocity points.
If you only use a few thousand dollars of BP fuel each year deposit say $1,000 with BP. At the end of each month pay them for fuel used during the month. You may even get a discount or velocity points.
Thread Starter
Are you making that offer on behalf of BP, B772?
In any event, I choose for my company not to deposit any money with BP. My choice is for my company to pay for stuff as and when it is purchased.
It is of course open to BP not to authorise sale of BP AVGAS except in circumstances determined by BP. But it is also open to potential purchasers to decide not to purchase.
In any event, I choose for my company not to deposit any money with BP. My choice is for my company to pay for stuff as and when it is purchased.
It is of course open to BP not to authorise sale of BP AVGAS except in circumstances determined by BP. But it is also open to potential purchasers to decide not to purchase.
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Are BP kidding?
I've had a BP carnet for over 20 years - automatically swipes every month.
No bank guarantee in place, it works fine but really old school.
Aerodromes were divided up for fuel service many years ago so smaller aerodromes are now only serviced by one company when there used to be two or more.
I've often wondered when I can go to Coles on Sunday and swipe my AMEX for a loaf of bread that BP and probably others can't get with the program.
I've had a BP carnet for over 20 years - automatically swipes every month.
No bank guarantee in place, it works fine but really old school.
Aerodromes were divided up for fuel service many years ago so smaller aerodromes are now only serviced by one company when there used to be two or more.
I've often wondered when I can go to Coles on Sunday and swipe my AMEX for a loaf of bread that BP and probably others can't get with the program.
Shell previously decided that recreational GA AVGAS carnet cards weren't in their best financial/profit interests. Fair enough, as that's their call. But at least, they ensured that their bowsers accepted popular credit cards.
(I can pay for AVGAS with my credit card at places like YBKE and YCBP.)
So why can't Air BP simply do the same thing? And particularly at an important monopoly hub such as YBHI?
(I can pay for AVGAS with my credit card at places like YBKE and YCBP.)
So why can't Air BP simply do the same thing? And particularly at an important monopoly hub such as YBHI?
I really meant ripping Canberra GA aviators off Clinton! Like the parking and hangar fees at CB and the absolutely dismal facilities allocated to the CAC, at an absorbent price.
Duck Pilot,
I've heard a rumour somewhere that Clinton McKenzie may have finally got fed up with the gouging of the Canberra Airport owner.
So perhaps he's relocated elsewhere?
I've heard a rumour somewhere that Clinton McKenzie may have finally got fed up with the gouging of the Canberra Airport owner.
So perhaps he's relocated elsewhere?
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"And your point is (even if those numbers are correct)?"
Well I recently sold my share of a aviation fuel company, so belive them or not!
If me I'd say just buy sealed drums and pump your own mate, your 2K is not worth my time (that's why I started own fuel company - you can too).
Well I recently sold my share of a aviation fuel company, so belive them or not!
If me I'd say just buy sealed drums and pump your own mate, your 2K is not worth my time (that's why I started own fuel company - you can too).
Thread Starter
You missed my point, BAL.
Let's take your numbers as correct. So what? The numbers seem to work for Shell and other suppliers, who will now get more of my business. I haven't been buying fuel from BP alone and I don't need to set up my own fuel company.
(And Duck: The "absorbent price" has to be charged to cover the costs of toilet paper and hand towels in the Gate 3 facility. You really should get and use a dictionary.)
Let's take your numbers as correct. So what? The numbers seem to work for Shell and other suppliers, who will now get more of my business. I haven't been buying fuel from BP alone and I don't need to set up my own fuel company.
(And Duck: The "absorbent price" has to be charged to cover the costs of toilet paper and hand towels in the Gate 3 facility. You really should get and use a dictionary.)
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BP are THE MOST arrogant people to deal with and the AirBP mob are the high achievers of the group.
Between Mrs jab and myself we managed accounts with them that were 6-7 figure sums and in her case add a couple of zero's. Caltex were far better and surprisingly different.
Aerorefuellers is now owned by K&S freighters from Mt Gambier. Andrew Heath sold it recently and still works there. I know for a while BP for them was a PITA and they lost money on providing that service (not broke even, lost) so they might be better off for it.
I would like to see more AR outlets and less of the BP/Shell ones. Just on principal.
Between Mrs jab and myself we managed accounts with them that were 6-7 figure sums and in her case add a couple of zero's. Caltex were far better and surprisingly different.
Aerorefuellers is now owned by K&S freighters from Mt Gambier. Andrew Heath sold it recently and still works there. I know for a while BP for them was a PITA and they lost money on providing that service (not broke even, lost) so they might be better off for it.
I would like to see more AR outlets and less of the BP/Shell ones. Just on principal.